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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | | Quote: | | I also have the perspective of two of the VC survivors who were there that day. |
A simple question about this statement. What criteria have either you or ABC used to verify these alleged VC survivors actually were there or even involved at all?
I know I have some trouble with accurate memory of events there some 33 years ago and I was only there for 18 months. They were there for the duration and just what made this one incident stand out to them, out of the hundreds or more they were obviously involved in? |
First of all, I don't know that they were involved in hundreds of incidents like that. Remember, this was a fairly remote (actually, very remote) area. It isn't like when I was up further in the delta. There I couldn't imagine, in many instances, those guys being able to distinguish one action from another, unless there was something special about it.
Keep in mind that the Swifts did not go up and down this canal much. They went 28 Feb, Mar 13 and once in Aug/Sept.
I didn't go there in the same manner as ABC, or for that matter Margie Mason. I didn't, thankfully, have a big entourage of officials with me. I only had one official that they (the locals) would call an outsider, and even she was from the province -- not Saigon or Hanoi, for example. There was a Dong Cung village official with me, and a Vietnamese friend I had to translate for me.
They didn't know where we were going in advance or what we were going to find, other than that we were going up the Dong Cung Canal. In fact, everyone at the main village (incorrectly referred to as "Cai Nuoc" in Tour of Duty), Dong Cung, which is where I lived during the war, were absolutely convinced that I was confusing this incident with another. This other incident happened at another place -- in the opposite direction -- and another time. They could not imagine how we could remember when and where something happened after all these years. I think they took me up there to humor me, as they were absolutely convinced I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.
So when we went up that canal and came across a farmer who witnessed the very beginning of the firefight, and also said that something happened on the other side of the canal at a later date (true -- the early part of March 13), and that people were KIA at both incidents (true) and that the boats stopped and soldiers got off (true), I knew this was the place.
He knew enough details for me to know this was the right place, but he didn't know much more than what I have just stated -- such as the actual date, how many were killed, etc.
After speaking to this farmer, the provincial official realizes, to her horror, that I really do know what I'm talking about (she knows I was there that day in 1969), so she tells my translator friend to tell these people I'm a journalist. There's a reason for this, but I'm not going into it now.
Anyway, without getting into much further detail, we were led by that farmer to a house nearby where supposedly a widow of one of the VC killed that day lived. We asked the date of his death. We were told 12 Jan, 1969 (sound familiar?) . . and upon asking for a clarification of the date, we were told it was 12 Jan 1969 on the Lunar calendar.
So, here I am, sitting next to this lady, which by itself borders on being more than I can take . . . . . . . and eventually, after they come from a nearby house, I meet & speak to two survivors of that day.
I thought that we would be lucky to find some sort of relative of one of the guys KIA that day -- a cousin uncle, sister, etc. I was only certain of one guy running away, and didn't ever think I would come across him (I didn't actually, he died some years later), so to suddenly be sitting there face to face with these two guys . . . . . and then to find out that all the guys KIA that day had something in common besides just being VC, and to be told the name of the guy I killed, and that his brother . . . .
While we knew the people we were against that day were "local" VC, we didn't really know how local they were. I expected maybe they would live a kilometer or two (more?) away, in which case who knows what/who I would find. As it turned out, I found out more than I ever expected, or perhaps wanted to.
And this was mainly because they lived right there -- you could just about throw a rock from where they live today, to where this incident happened. They might have lived further back in 1969, but today they are perhaps 50-100 yards away.
They didn't know I was a vet or that I was there that day in 1969. Kerry's name was never mentioned.
There isn't a shread of doubt in my mind that these two guys were there. There are the reasons I've just stated, and others I haven't -- Some of those are even more compelling than what I've just mentioned.
Doug |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:00 am Post subject: |
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from http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2004/story?id=166434&page=2...
| Quote: | According to the Navy's official report, following the initial ambush, Kerry's boat and another Swift boat continued up the river to an area where gunshots had been reported.
Less than a kilometer upriver is Nha Vi, a small hamlet. Vo Van Tam, now 54, was a local Viet Cong commander during the war. According to him, the area was a hotbed of guerrilla activity. |
When I watched the Nightline report, the location of the 2nd hamlet, where the lone VC was, seemed quite far away from the initial ambush. Since Mr. Reese says Kerry landed only 60 yards from the initial ambush, Nightline must have interviewed "peasants" from the wrong hamlet. The 2nd group of "peasants" must be phoneys. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | Doug said: I have answered question on this board till I'm blue in the face
Sevry said: Haven't seen it, yet. And this is - what - the fifth time I've posted to you?
When you get to that box you will find some info about me, and also a link to all of the 330+ posts I have made here, in chronological order.
Doug |
You only have to scroll back one or two pages to see the very simple questions I asked of YOU.
You appear to be ducking these questions, at this point. Don't you understand that? I've had to repeat myself to you, MANY TIMES, now. You have not been straightforward. You appear to be playing games. And yet you prefer that people taking any of your testimony, at this point, seriously.
Put yourself in someone else's position. See it from their point of view. If you were reading this thread, would YOU believe the guy posting as Doug Reese? Help people out with this. Make some effort. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | And this was mainly because they lived right there -- you could just about throw a rock from where they live today, to where this incident happened.
Doug |
And that's great, Doug. But YOU haven't said what you think happened that day. And don't say I haven't asked.
What if what happened is that nothing happened? or at least nothing like what's being said now, by Kerry supporters. There was a firefight earlier. The '20VC', for sake of argument. I don't know anyone who doubts that, generally. And that's how it reads, even. Kerry was 'drifting about'. Kerry came under fire from an RPG. The boat which carried you, and the 94, raced to shore and beached. But you DID NOT face enemy fire at that time. Kerry did come upon the VC that fired on him. His launcher may have been empty. He may have had other grenades ready to go. He COULD have been a threat. He was a legitimate target. I don't know too many who believed that he shouldn't have been killed.
But if he was alone, if he was shot in the back running away, if he was severely wounded even by BOTH M60 and 50 caliber, then it's okay to say that, too. And if you know that to be the case, even secondhand, as someone physically present that day, then I think you should say that. If that is, in fact, what honestly happened that day, then be honest about it. Say what you know. If it's second-hand, then fine. It's second-hand from someone there, that day. But tell the truth, as you know it. Be honest. |
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GT
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Reese,
You are correct. I don't know you. But would you tell me if you wrote this post which is authored by a Doug Reese, dated August 19th, 2004?
http://edwardpig.typepad.com/edwardpig/2004/05/ted_sampley_the.html
"Note that the Swiftvets make detailed falsifiable claims, while Kerry and his minions virtually always stick to generalities, and to short softball interviews with friendly historians, press and comedians, while refusing to release over 95% of his Vietnam records (according to Wa Po this week)".
"Also, Kerry did not go to the Senate saying 'Here are some stories, I don't know if they're true or not'. He came as the leader of an organization claiming systematic deliberate war crimes ordered throughout the chain of command". |
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flagreen
Seaman
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 175
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Oops! I read the wrong post at Edwardpig so I'm deleting what I originally wrote in this post.
Last edited by flagreen on Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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RMalloy
PO3
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:36 am Post subject: |
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www.3onevet.com/viet_journal.htm - 54k -
The following day, we had an appointment to call on retired NVA General Bui Van Tung. To my knowledge we were the only Vietnam veterans, with the exception of Doug Reese, to ever visit General Tung. He told us that he was in charge of the tank unit that seized the South Vietnamese Presidential Palace on 30 April 1975, that infamous day that South Vietnam surrendered to the North without firing a shot. The official North Vietnam version of the surrender is that General Tung actually accepted the formal surrender from President Minh. Through our guide we had a good visit with the general. He broke out his photo album and discussed various events leading up to 30 April. The general lives very humbly in the rear of his son's internet cafe.
[/b] |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| GT wrote: | Mr. Reese,
You are correct. I don't know you. But would you tell me if you wrote this post which is authored by a Doug Reese, dated August 19th, 2004?
http://edwardpig.typepad.com/edwardpig/2004/05/ted_sampley_the.html
"Note that the Swiftvets make detailed falsifiable claims, while Kerry and his minions virtually always stick to generalities, and to short softball interviews with friendly historians, press and comedians, while refusing to release over 95% of his Vietnam records (according to Wa Po this week)".
"Also, Kerry did not go to the Senate saying 'Here are some stories, I don't know if they're true or not'. He came as the leader of an organization claiming systematic deliberate war crimes ordered throughout the chain of command". |
GT, looks like to me Mr. Reese wrote the entry before the post you quoted, which would be
| Quote: | Enough of the "executed a wounded prisoner" lie.
Doug
"3 purple hearts for likely self-inflicted wounds, a bronze star and silver star for executing a wounded prisoner all in 21 days." |
I think akmdave wrote the post you quoted. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| GT wrote: | Mr. Reese,
You are correct. I don't know you. But would you tell me if you wrote this post which is authored by a Doug Reese, dated August 19th, 2004?
http://edwardpig.typepad.com/edwardpig/2004/05/ted_sampley_the.html
"Note that the Swiftvets make detailed falsifiable claims, while Kerry and his minions virtually always stick to generalities, and to short softball interviews with friendly historians, press and comedians, while refusing to release over 95% of his Vietnam records (according to Wa Po this week)".
"Also, Kerry did not go to the Senate saying 'Here are some stories, I don't know if they're true or not'. He came as the leader of an organization claiming systematic deliberate war crimes ordered throughout the chain of command". |
Not a chance. Not only is that not the way I speak, it's from someone on the other side of the fence than myself. I'm so sure of this I didn't clink on your link.
In fact, I see the name of someone I truly, ummm, disagree with (see how I avoided saying despise) in the link.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| RMalloy wrote: | www.3onevet.com/viet_journal.htm - 54k -
The following day, we had an appointment to call on retired NVA General Bui Van Tung. To my knowledge we were the only Vietnam veterans, with the exception of Doug Reese, to ever visit General Tung. He told us that he was in charge of the tank unit that seized the South Vietnamese Presidential Palace on 30 April 1975, that infamous day that South Vietnam surrendered to the North without firing a shot. The official North Vietnam version of the surrender is that General Tung actually accepted the formal surrender from President Minh. Through our guide we had a good visit with the general. He broke out his photo album and discussed various events leading up to 30 April. The general lives very humbly in the rear of his son's internet cafe.
[/b] |
Was there something you wanted to say with this post/quote, but you sent it before saying it? It does bring back memories, though . . . .
This would have been by Col John Regal US Marine Corps, Ret. He went to Vietnam twice -- this trip with a fellow Marine, and again with his wife.
I met this NVA general on a trip I took with some people, one of whom had a husband who had some dealings with this general on April 30, 1975, at the Presidential Palace of SVN, when the palace was taken of by this general (then a major, I believe) ---Very interesting visit for both myself and John.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| igor wrote: | from http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2004/story?id=166434&page=2...
| Quote: | According to the Navy's official report, following the initial ambush, Kerry's boat and another Swift boat continued up the river to an area where gunshots had been reported.
Less than a kilometer upriver is Nha Vi, a small hamlet. Vo Van Tam, now 54, was a local Viet Cong commander during the war. According to him, the area was a hotbed of guerrilla activity. |
When I watched the Nightline report, the location of the 2nd hamlet, where the lone VC was, seemed quite far away from the initial ambush. Since Mr. Reese says Kerry landed only 60 yards from the initial ambush, Nightline must have interviewed "peasants" from the wrong hamlet. The 2nd group of "peasants" must be phoneys. |
That was my concern when I watched it, as they went further up the canal due to what was stated in the citation (2nd or 3rd) about the 800 yards up the canal, which is incorrect.
After speaking with the producer I am fairly sure they spoke to the "real deal" as far as locals are concerned. The problem is, when I went in March, we didn't note the "village" we went to. Keep in mind that village in Vietnam more or less is similar to precinct or township over here. It isn't like there are signs up, or a large number of houses grouped together. It is a geographic area.
So when Margie Mason says it was such and such village, as did NL, that meant nothing to me.
Keep in mind that these people may have moved a bit from where they lived during the war. NL went up maybe 700-1000 yards from where they spoke to survivors at the first location. I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the first place they stopped at was the place I was at in March.
Anyway, I'll probably clear that up when I look at the tape of that piece again and/or when I go back.
Doug |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
the 800 yards . . .
Very interesting visit for both myself and John.
Doug |
The 800 yards, as I read it, is correct -if you are referring to one incident and not the other which has made all the news. I trust you aren't forgetting your own story, Doug. In other words, in reflecting on those times, have you had a chance, yet, to consider what you personally recollect from that infamous Feb attack which gave JFK-erry a Silver Star? Are you able to fill in any details, at this point?
Might you now recall, instead, upon careful meditation or what have you, that it happened just as the Swifties have described? You really don't wish to contradict them, at this point, with Kerry dropping in the polls and likely to lose the election, badly? You'd like to live and let live after this is over?
If you've dropped your complaint with the Swifties complaint, then I think you should say THAT. People might like to know. Maybe Ted Koppel wouldn't care about the facts. But I suspect quite a few people are interested in the facts. I'm one of them. Can you say the same? |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
I am fairly sure they spoke to the "real deal" as far as locals are concerned.
Doug |
You don't seem to be getting this. So let me phrase this another way. YOU haven't spoken to the 'real deal', as far as I can see. And I've asked you many times.
A) if upon reflection you now really have no quarrel with the Swifties account of the events that day, if you now agree with John O'Neill, then I would think a man of integrity would say just that, in the present context.
B) if you are embarrassed by Kerry's actions, that day, and feel some shame either for what you've done this year, or all those years for how he misrepresented events, then it's a good time to deal with that, and get over it. If you seem to want a live and let live attitude to remain, if Kerry continues to sink in the polls until even the AOL 'straw vote' starts to seem a conservative guess, then I remind you - yet again - once again, that honesty is still the best approach. It's your friend. It's your best alternative. A dangerous, possibly still armed, VC was killed that day. He was alone, but he was dangerous. He was alone, he was running, he'd been shot perhaps by BOTH M60 and 50 caliber, was severely wounded, and was shot in the back by your hero, and present candidate for the US Presidency. You can say it was both, in all honesty.
Wouldn't you rather? |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="sevry"] | DougReese wrote: | And this was mainly because they lived right there -- you could just about throw a rock from where they live today, to where this incident happened.
Doug |
| sevry wrote: |
And that's great, Doug. But YOU haven't said what you think happened that day. And don't say I haven't asked.
What if what happened is that nothing happened? or at least nothing like what's being said now, by Kerry supporters. |
What? I don't have to have been standing next to Kerry back then (I wasn't) to know that "something happened". What do you mean "what's being said now by Kerry supporters"?
| sevry wrote: |
There was a firefight earlier. The '20VC', for sake of argument. I don't know anyone who doubts that, generally. And that's how it reads, even. Kerry was 'drifting about'. |
I saw an earlier mention of this -- "drifting about" -- and an not sure what it means. It seems to mean his boat was sort of hanging around, which I don't believe is correct. Read what Bill Rood has to say about what he/Kerry were doing.
| sevry wrote: |
Kerry came under fire from an RPG. The boat which carried you, and the 94, raced to shore and beached. But you DID NOT face enemy fire at that time. |
Keep in mind that I was no longer on that (the 23 boat) at that time, but was on the ground. Shooting was going on where I was, which was very much adjacent/close to where Kerry beached.
| sevry wrote: |
Kerry did come upon the VC that fired on him. His launcher may have been empty. He may have had other grenades ready to go. He COULD have been a threat. He was a legitimate target. I don't know too many who believed that he shouldn't have been killed.
But if he was alone, |
He wasn't. Bill Rood says he wasn't. The survivors I spoke to said he wasn't.
| sevry wrote: |
if he was shot in the back running away, |
He wasn't. An officer on Kerry's boat saw the wounds on the guy Kerry shot, as that was the first dead body he'd ever seen. It wasn't in the back. Not that I care, like you, where he was shot, but it apparently wasn't in the back.
| sevry wrote: |
if he was severely wounded even by BOTH M60 and 50 caliber, then it's okay to say that, too. And if you know that to be the case, even secondhand, as someone physically present that day, then I think you should say that. |
And here's where, if you had looked at my past posts here, you'd definitely have seen comments about this. It is known by anyone who is familiar with Swifts, and accepted by those who have frequented this board, to my knowledge, that he wasn't shot by the .50 cal.
I saw the body, and while not noticing the killing wound (unlike the guy I just mentioned, this was far from being the first dead body I had seen), it was plain to me as Kerry stood there and told me what happened, that the guy wasn't all shot up. That would have been obvious. It wasn't.
| sevry wrote: |
If that is, in fact, what honestly happened that day, then be honest about it. Say what you know. If it's second-hand, then fine. It's second-hand from someone there, that day. But tell the truth, as you know it. Be honest. |
I have.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| sevry wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
the 800 yards . . .
Very interesting visit for both myself and John.
Doug |
The 800 yards, as I read it, is correct -if you are referring to one incident and not the other which has made all the news. I trust you aren't forgetting your own story, Doug. In other words, in reflecting on those times, have you had a chance, yet, to consider what you personally recollect from that infamous Feb attack which gave JFK-erry a Silver Star? Are you able to fill in any details, at this point?
Might you now recall, instead, upon careful meditation or what have you, that it happened just as the Swifties have described? You really don't wish to contradict them, at this point, with Kerry dropping in the polls and likely to lose the election, badly? You'd like to live and let live after this is over?
If you've dropped your complaint with the Swifties complaint, then I think you should say THAT. People might like to know. Maybe Ted Koppel wouldn't care about the facts. But I suspect quite a few people are interested in the facts. I'm one of them. Can you say the same? |
I'll just speak to the 800 yards if you don't mind, and leave the posturing to you.
The point on the canal where the boat I was on beached, and where Kerry's boat beached, were absolutely not 800 yards apart. They were more like 40-50-60-70-80 yards apart.
I know it. Those of us advisors/Navy there know it. Even the VC who were there know it, as they drew a diagram for me as to who (on their side) was where.
Doug |
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