SwiftVets.com

[Craig]

[Craig]

[Marine4life]

Now I will reply, since some of these questions are more of what I was after rather than stuff that you could get off of the net. North and south, Bakersfield it all started at Chino over a pair of shoes and dope. Blindspots well it depends on the joint but usually happened at yard recall when everyone was bunched up in front of the block. As far as beating the sh*t out of someone well that didn't happen often it was usually a shank. As far as voting well you can't without a pardon, or own guns. But if you don't know who those convicts were as you have said then I guess that you are blowing smoke. Every convict knows who can have them taken out with just a look. So I deem that you are unimportant if you can't vote. What was the phrase that convicts used when a gaurd was on the tier. What would you use to fetch something from another convict in another cell. Answer that and I will put some merrit to your claims.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

[Grampa]

I see sparky didn't read a thing about what I wrote. The Red Cross is just covering their asses. Because when I was there, the Red Cross came to that prison probably 4 times when I was there and they NEVER told us that we were screwing it up. I would always ask my section chief, a MSG, if the Red Cross had any corrections for us to make and he would say that they seemed satisfied with our procedures.

Fact: the investigation began INTERNALLY, long before the accused sent the pics to Dan Rather, long before the press got ahold of it.


Here, cut from your own massive copy/paste, :

"Jan. 13, 2004 Specialist Joseph Darby, a member of the 372nd MP
Company, 800th MP Brigade, reports evidence of the crimes to
military investigators

Feb. 26 The International Committee of the Red Cross warns in a
report to Sanchez and Coalition Provisional Authority chief L.
Paul Bremer that the abuse of some prisoners in Iraq is
"tantamount to torture"

A little later than when you claim it happened, yes?

I will even correct myself: I was wrong when I said SPC Darby went to CID in Dec 03. It was 13 Jan 04. My bad. But the Red Cross didn't get on board until 43 days later.

So much for Sparky's claim. Again.

So, Sparky, if you wish to ignore the actual sequence of events IOT continue raving about Pres Bush, go right ahead.
_________________
Iraqi Freedom 2003-2004. We won't take any of that 1960s crap when We come home!

[sparky]

Sorry Gramps, I don't believe the Red Cross felt compelled to tell everyone there about the abuses. I think they stuck with the higher-ups. Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As for when the abuses stopped, TIME magazine was quoting credible detainees as saying they were abused as late as March. But you already read that, right?

I stand by my claim: the abuses continued until the publicity made it politically foolish to continue. And frankly, without the publicity, I think the abuses would still be going on and probably getting worse.

[Craig]

[Marine4life]

C/O is a latter term I am from the old school, gaurd is what we used. The term for a gaurd on the tier is, man walking and the method used for getting objects from another inmate is a fishline. When I was at Folsom they were just building new Folsom. As far as I know old Folsom went to level II and new Folsom is level IV. That was after I was gone to Tehachapi where I worked IVa and the IVb yard. I was there for a year before I went to RJD as the activation team on the level III yard. 2 1/2 years later I went to Pelican Bay as an activation team member to open that joint. Late 1980's is when we started the Peace Officer status and became C/O's, along with the grooming standards. I was a SHU cop for most of the time that I was at PBSP. What was you number, not the whole thing just the prefix that will give me an idea as to what time frame you were there? CDC has gone through certain blocks of numbers during different time frames. I am not trying to prove you wrong, contrary I am trying to prove you right. As far as your Folsom trivia, well that has all changed with the new construction of the new Folsom but my recollection is that they were building an upper yard that had a view of the whole surrounding area. The museum and gift shop was on the right as you approached the gate but that could be different now as well because things were tore up with all the construction. The new prison construction style only allows you to see out of your cell through a 4" wide by 4' tall vertical window, you can't see out from with in the yard in most of the new style construction. But new Folsom was planning a yard that protuded out from the main yard for program inmates (A1A status privelege group). I would assume that is what you refer to as the upper yard. But I can't really speak as to the changes that you mentioned because I wasn't there after that.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

[Speedy]

[Marine4life]

I agree speedy, as you have probably read on other threads, abuse of women appauls me. Just as the raping of our female soldiers by the Iraqi's. And yes it happened. I don't condone raping their women either it is just sick, I have been a long advocate that rape should be a capital punishment.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

[Speedy]

[Grampa]

[Craig]

[Craig]

[ROTC DAD]

Grampa,

The question I have to asked is when you say the RC did not apprise your MSG whether your unit needed to make corrections, was your unit involved in actions similar to those caught on the CD, including the ones we have never been shown. If you were involved in such behavior, there would be no incentive for you to state that here. In fact, there would be major disincentive to do so.

If you were not involved in such behavior, then your arguements are moot becuase there would be no reason for the RC to apprise your unit of what it had found. As even the commanding general of the prison stated, she was not allowed into the area where these abuses occurred without permission. So how would you have greater access?

N_N_N,

You argue that you would believe Rumsfeld and Myers before either Sparky or myself, yet you choose to believe rather selectively as both Rumsfeld and Myers have stated on live television that they knew of the Taguba Report but hadn't read it, even after asking the WP to hold off two weeks on the story. Which leaves only two conclusions: Either these people are exceedingly dumb, so why are they leading our war effort; or they did not think that what was happening was a big deal, in which case they are war criminals under the Rules of the Geneva Conventions.

Also, Colin Powell has stated that he kept the President apprised of the warnings from the RC from March of last year (another point against Grampa's assertions). So we knew and did nothing.

Scott,

You ask what the Germans thought of us after we defeated them in WWII. I'm not a big fan of Tim Russert's, but in his book "Big Russ and Me", he speaks about his father serving in WWII and how his father felt proud that the US soldiers did not stoop to the same level as their German counterparts. The point being that we may have been looked upon as victors and therefore not wanted, but we were not looked upon as just a replacement oppressor.

Marine4life argues that abuse happens every day in US prisons, so why are we so shocked? Well, I'm shocked when it happens in US prisons and condemn it there as well. But all of the abuse at Abu Ghraib and the other prisons is being perpetrated by the prison guards, not by other inmates. In fact, 70 to 90% of the inmates in these prisons being abused by their guards are not even combatants or criminals, just regular Iraqis picked up in security sweeps.

Are you arguing, Marine4life, that guards are abusing prisoners in US prisons on as massive a scale as what is happening to Iraqis? If you are, you should report it.

Others of you have argued that our abuse isn't as terrible as Saddam's. That's an interesting arguement: What's the big deal, we haven't killed as many as Saddam. The issue is, however, that the only way you can make this kind of arguement is if you objectify the people you abuse, torture, and kill. Pretty much, in the minds of the people making this arguement, you are arguing that Iraqis are not human beings. Your are arguing that they do not have the same basic rights you take for granted; that they are at our mercy to do with as we like. You are arguing against everything this country stands for and everything we are supposedly fighting for.

[Speedy]