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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Besides who cares, I don't recall going into Iraq on the premise of a conection to 911. IT WAS WMD'S AND A TORTUROUS REGIME, AND TERRORISTS WE WENT AFTER. Bush made that clear to me. It is no secret that Iraq was the host to terrorists, watch the news and you will see them every day. Bush's comment that I remember was " We will go after all terrorist's wherever they are, there isn't a hole deep enough to hide in, and all countries that harbor them, either you are with us or against us". So this is your proof that Bush has to go, give me a break. The results of a kangaroo court to try and sway the election, just won't work with me. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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oldkayaker
Ensign
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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Marine 4 life
No argument about US trying to catch terrorists. But, we had strong evidence that terrorists that attacked us were in Afghan and proabably in the Pakistan border area. We had access to both of those countries and then, out of the blue (after his message from god)....Bush pulls the Afghan effort apart, diverts troops and supplies to escalate the containment of Iraq.
Thats why Bush is the wrong person for the US and anyone is better. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:34 am Post subject: |
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You obviously have your view on Iraq as battlefield in the war on terror.
I think it might serve your interest to read an Iraqi opinion on the matter.
This is from Ali at "Iraq the Model". He's a dentist in Bhagdad.
| Quote: | The Iraqi trap
Some people think that the American officials didn’t expect such fierce fight from the Islamic groups that keep flowing into Iraq from almost all directions after toppling Saddam. They say that the American army have fell into a trap in Iraq. I want to say that I agree on Iraq being a trap, only it’s a trap for the terrorists not the Americans.
Given their belief in that the war on Saddam and establishing democracy in Iraq was the key stone in combating terrorism, the American administration surely had expected (not planned) this situation as a result of freeing Iraq. The American administration said it more than once that it’s better to fight terrorism outside America than wait until being forced to fight it inside her borders.
This war is good for America in many ways; it eliminated a potential danger, it gives America a good and very much needed ally in the heart of a hostile area, one that is a ‘member of the family’, unlike Israel and Turkey, it secures American interests in the region and makes America safer by attracting the main efforts of the terrorists away from her borders and by building a sort of a nucleus for a democratic Arab Muslim world that will surely diminish the dreadful threat of a combined terrorism and WMDs.
Here comes the question: why Iraq? What’s there about Iraq that makes here the best location for such a battle?
To start with, and from the political point of view, Saddam’ regime was one of the weakest regimes in the world with a very limited support whether from outside or inside Iraq and this fact made that regime much easier to topple than any other dictatorship. The other fact is that in almost all Arab and Muslim countries, the opposition is mainly formed of Islamic parties which makes the change rather dangerous, as it may well result in a theocracy that’s if those parties were ready to accept the change and didn’t fight the “infidels” side by side with their oppressors the dictators since “they’re still Muslims”.
It’s true there are Islamic groups in Iraq and some of them are radical but they’re still much weaker than anywhere else in the Muslim world and are far from being the majority and most of them have accepted democracy even if they dream of a theocracy since they know they have no chance in making their dreams come true with only a minority of Iraqis on their side. Even geography favors Iraq being a plain area with no jungles or mountains that favors the guerrilla fighting (except in the very friendly northern parts).
Now America is of course paying a high price in this battle but it has to be done and it’s incomparable to what she would lose had she decided to leave the terrorists alone. Not only the American officials have agreed that they can afford this high price, as most of the soldiers I’ve met or heard seem to accept and respect their mission along with their families, friends and many other Americans.
That’s about the Americans, but what about the Iraqis? What will they win and what will they lose? Well, the Iraqis have lost and will lose many lives as a result of the terrorist attacks in addition to the economic losses. In return, and at the end of this struggle, they will win their freedom, democracy and prosperity.
From the technical point of view and if we count on numbers and statistics, Iraqis' losses in lives are much less than the regular losses during Saddam’s times with different reasons, and regarding economy and despite the damages that the terrorists are causing, Iraqis' average income is increasing day by day. Iraqis' money was never their money, it was Sadam’s and now it’s back to them. Still this sounds cruel, as does anyone have the right to put Iraqis lives into such “chaos” and risk just because he saved them from a worse situation?!
I think the answer to this question is NO, since it’s still up to the Iraqis to decide between going the hard way or giving up, ask the Americans to leave and go back to “safe” sheep’s life, to the organized and controlled torture, rape, murder and humiliation. This is not very difficult to acieve, it's enough to stop cooperating with the coalition and demonstrating to ask them to leave. The coalition may not oblige but they will certainly lose.
I, being an Iraqi have accepted the challenge and I’m not alone; hundreds of thousands of IP, soldiers, officials and workers in different fields have decided the same by doing their job, cooperating with the coalition and marching persistently towards building their country, maintaining their freedom and embracing the changes towards democracy. Other Millions of Iraqis are supporting this process each in his own way.
We didn’t take the decision of the war, that’s right, but we’ve accepted it with full knowledge of the consequences and that’s why you cannot see one large demonstration asking the coalition to leave. We gained our freedom, after Saddam’s fall almost for free, as most of the enormous losses we suffered before that time were not the result of real attempts to gain freedom; they were in most times the result of mere disapproval with the Ba’athists or were part of the systematic killing to maintain the paralyzing fear at a maximum. Maybe it’s time to pay and this time we are ready because we are free from that fear after seeing the weakness of our enemies and we have seen what we were missing and are not ready to lose it no matter what happens. We will pay the price and we will not surrender or compromise, we will fight and we will win.-By Ali. |
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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oldkayaker
Ensign
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:35 am Post subject: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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Nakona
Independent thinkers don't need any hidden organization or hidden agendas as you appear to have.
This message thread is about liking or not liking Bush and liking or not liking Kerry. I have made it clear where I stand. Didn't like Bush; but, gave him a chance and he proved me right.
What the policitical parties put up as candidates is not my decision to make as a non-partisan. I am stuck with the party choice. If the Repubs insist on staying with Bush, then this independent thinker is telling you and anyone who wants to listen that its a mistake. Bush made big, stupid mistakes on his watch and doesn't deserve a second term.
No underground here Nakona...just the facts as they are presented. |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Independent thinkers = Liberal code words for I'm always right, and everybody that disagrees with me is less intelligent than I am, and are always wrong!
Those who understand, understand!
Those who do not understand, will never understand!
And no amount of debate or discussion will ever change that!
Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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NYCnative
Seaman
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 151
Location: SI, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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| oldkayaker wrote: | Marine 4 life
No argument about US trying to catch terrorists. But, we had strong evidence that terrorists that attacked us were in Afghan and proabably in the Pakistan border area. We had access to both of those countries and then, out of the blue (after his message from god)....Bush pulls the Afghan effort apart, diverts troops and supplies to escalate the containment of Iraq.
Thats why Bush is the wrong person for the US and anyone is better. |
What part of with us or against us do you not understand? What part of if you aid or harbor terrorists you are a terrorist?
I voted for Clinton, then Gore. I was so embarrassed by the "Chad" fiasco, that I too decided to give Bush a chance.
I helped in the evacuation of the WTC in the bombing of "93". When we entered the bldg, we did not know it was a terrorist attack. When the FBI showed up, we knew we had to work even though there could have been a secondary device. The faces of the people descending from 100+ flights, their faces covered in thick black soot. The handicapped, elderly and pregnant had to be carried down. Children stuck in elevators for hours. After that day, I thought my country was doing everything it could to keep me safe. I was so wrong.
On 9-11, FDNY lost 343 firefighters. The people stuck in the elevators were incinerated by burning jet fuel which poured down the shafts. People on the street waiting for buses also were engulfed in the jet fuel spilling down on them. The fireball blew out elevator doors on lower floor and the lobby. The people didn't just die from jumping from 90 floors up, they killed people they landed on, and covered the glass of the lobby with their blood and parts.
I gave Bush a chance and boy was I glad he won! I thought the prior Administration was on the job. Now I know we were just sitting ducks. Better to be on the offensive, better to have a policy of strength. Bush made a tough decision and I thank him for it.
Think about what Kerry really stands for. A European America. Anyone who sat in office for all that time is as guilty as the prior Administration. Where was Kerry all this time NYC was getting hit? I am fed up with all of the elected officials, everyone except Bush!
_________________
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Proclaim Liberty throughout All the land unto All the Inhabitants Thereof." -Inscription on the Liberty Bell |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:05 pm Post subject: 9/11 and Bush vs. Kerry |
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NYCnative: Well said, and Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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NoDonkey
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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| oldkayaker wrote: | Nakona
Bush made big, stupid mistakes on his watch and doesn't deserve a second term.
No underground here Nakona...just the facts as they are presented. |
Because Bill Clinton went out of his way to avoid "big stupid mistakes on his watch" (like taking a risk to properly respond to the first WTC bombing, the bombing of our embassies, the Khobar Towers bombing, the USS Cole, capturing bin Laden), Al Qaeda grew throughout the 90's. Plus, any risk Clinton did take (bombing the Sudanese aspirin factory and the Chinese embassy in Belgrade) were minimalized by his adoring press corps. Meanwhile, Bush is savaged for doing his job by a media that has hated him from day one.
Guarantee John Kerry will likewise avoid any risk to his popularity, which is exactly the wrong way to defend this nation.
The last thing we need is another finger-in-the-wind, poll obsessed, lovelorn, warmed-over Marxist, eurotrash worshipping clown in the White House and that description fits the worthless traitor John Kerry to a "T".
_________________
"Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face." - Thomas Sowell
Last edited by NoDonkey on Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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| NoDonkey wrote: | | The last thing we need is another finger-in-the-wind, poll obsessed, lovelorn, warmed-over Marxist, eurotrash worshipping clown in the White House and that description fits the worthless traitor John Kerry to a "T". |
I wish I had written that.
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Bye bye, Boston Straggler! |
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MikeWinn
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Oldkayaker listed a couple of links to read. I did. I have never seen
so many "it appears", "there is no direct evidence", "reportedly", and
"is said to". I sincerely hope that he is not leaning on this 'factual report'
to lend credence to his arguments!? It amazes me what lib's will do to
defend the indefensabile and excuse the inexcusable!!
_________________
LOCK & LOAD!
GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man. |
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oldkayaker
Ensign
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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No Donkey said
| Quote: | | Meanwhile, Bush is savaged for doing his job by a media that has hated him from day one. |
Bush was praised and congratulated for the military's work in Afghanistan up to the moment Bush decided to send the US military almost alone into a diversionary action in Iraq. Bush has been savaged as you say because of his decision to waste US soldiers and divert focus from Afghanistan and Pakistan where it was more highly likely to catch OBL and al Qaeda in the places they were known to have operated.
No credible connection to al Qaeda and OBL in Iraq. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Sudan maybe also ( and if Clinton didn't get OBL there, does that mean Bush shouldn't re-try?) but not Iraq. Not at least while Saddam was in power.... now, who knows, they are probably running all over the place. |
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NoDonkey
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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| oldkayaker wrote: | No Donkey said
| Quote: | | Meanwhile, Bush is savaged for doing his job by a media that has hated him from day one. |
Bush was praised and congratulated for the military's work in Afghanistan up to the moment Bush decided to send the US military almost alone into a diversionary action in Iraq. Bush has been savaged as you say because of his decision to waste US soldiers and divert focus from Afghanistan and Pakistan where it was more highly likely to catch OBL and al Qaeda in the places they were known to have operated.
No credible connection to al Qaeda and OBL in Iraq. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Sudan maybe also ( and if Clinton didn't get OBL there, does that mean Bush shouldn't re-try?) but not Iraq. Not at least while Saddam was in power.... now, who knows, they are probably running all over the place. |
Praised by who? I recall numerous predictions of failure, that it would be similar to the Soviet experience there, the NY Times called it a quagmire a week into it, etc. Only when it was a success was it used as a club to beat the President with by those who "supported" it (aka people who opposed it prior to success) but not its logical extension in Iraq.
You win a war by taking the fight to the enemy (refer to Sun Tzu). Kerry would take us back to the days of lawyers, indictments, CYA policies, working with the hopelessly corrupt UN (how is that oil for food investigation going by the way, where Kofi Annan and his corrupt UN employees were enriching themselves).
If we have to rely on failed Democratic Party methods to defend this nation we might as well pass Sharia law, make Saddam our President and get it over with.
_________________
"Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face." - Thomas Sowell |
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ROWELG
Ensign
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: EVENTS VERSUS IDEAS |
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The statement is "No credible evidence!", not connection.
These are lawyers using American jusisprudence. That means there is NO SMOKING GUN. It doesn't mean there were no facts, it just means they have no photographs of Sadam and Bin Laden having tea together, or taped recordings. There was no credible EVENT!
What I now say will start another big debate. Socialism think events. Capitalism thinks ideas. I learned that from Thomas Merton 30 some years ago. A couple weeks ago, the top Democrat Party guy, on CNN I think, confirmed this when he said that EVENTS between now and election will determine the outcome. There was no mention of IDEAS. Watch the news. They will scrape the bottom of the barrel looking for EVENTS to hang Bush. What are Kerry's big ideas for America? None!
Observe the language of many of these posts. Bring up an idea like France being an adversary, and the subject shifts to events, to bad American conduct. Talk about ideas of RIGHTS today, and the subject shifts to EVENTS 200 years ago. Talk about ideas of French and UN conduct, and events long past are drudged up.
The event of the prison dominate the news for over a month. Cannot let that event get past us. The events reported by the 911 Committee will be parsed and microscoped. Good events in Iraq will be set aside.
Reagan had the big idea that USSR was evil, and could not prevail if opposed. He was correct. Bush's big idea is that a democracy in the Middle East will bring stability there. Time will tell. Clinton's big idea was bringing peace in the Middle East, thru talk. It failed. Americans are smart. They will look past events, and look for who has the big ideas. Time will tell. Just set back and observe with a new eye. Look for the focus on events. Look for any focus on ideas.
_________________
Politics: public debate over ideas/values to decide the heart of a civilization.
Debate: To provoke thought in open minded readers and listeners.
Partisan: BLIND, prejudiced, unreasoned devotion to a party, faction, envisioned theory, or person.
Last edited by ROWELG on Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:18 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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NYCnative
Seaman
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 151
Location: SI, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: like Bush or hate Kerry |
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| oldkayaker wrote: | No Donkey said
| Quote: | | Meanwhile, Bush is savaged for doing his job by a media that has hated him from day one. |
Bush was praised and congratulated for the military's work in Afghanistan up to the moment Bush decided to send the US military almost alone into a diversionary action in Iraq. Bush has been savaged as you say because of his decision to waste US soldiers and divert focus from Afghanistan and Pakistan where it was more highly likely to catch OBL and al Qaeda in the places they were known to have operated.
No credible connection to al Qaeda and OBL in Iraq. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Sudan maybe also ( and if Clinton didn't get OBL there, does that mean Bush shouldn't re-try?) but not Iraq. Not at least while Saddam was in power.... now, who knows, they are probably running all over the place. |
Again, denial! No credible connection. What is it about you guys? Even when your glorious commission says it, its still not good enough.
Second, we didn't go it alone, we went without the trash.
Third, the bad guys are everywhere. You really aren't paying any attention, they've been at it for a good 20 years. They're everywhere in the Mideast and the world! Understand, it's REAL. This is not a test!
After Afghanistan, they must have been really pi**ed off. Given the times we live in now, would you take any chances regarding Saddam? Wasn't regime change for Iraq first talked about with Clinton? How soon we forget?
Where do you think the terrorists would go after Afghanistan? They scattered like cockroaches. Given the years of resolutions, prior warnings by the prior Administration and the unwillingness of Saddam to disarm fully, just what do you propose we did? Go to the UN to get their permission? Doesn't the Oil for food fraud mean anything to you? It is insanity to say, it's Al-Queda and they are in Afghanistan, so forget about the rest of the world? A bit short-sighted and I'm glad your not in the White House!
_________________
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Proclaim Liberty throughout All the land unto All the Inhabitants Thereof." -Inscription on the Liberty Bell |
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