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stcromwell99
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 46
Location: DC area
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DenisC wrote: | I wonder if it would not be better to do this work in the "Background"...a password protected site, by those who are known to be on YOUR side???
Once evaluated, then unload all at once. |
Why hide anything. If the facts prove or disprove something it is either there or it isn't. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Just to clarify - it's not a matter of hiding facts. The facts are making their way to pixels everywhere. 
It's a matter of keeping some of the discussion, speculation and comparison of the facts relatively private until the relationship between facts is proven.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sorry Cipher, the documents are originals, not copies. The facilities are small and everyone works together in one room. I think the problem with the documents is that civilians aren't as able to decipher the routing codes, etc. |
I saw indexing markings and lineouts on the classification stamps in the copies I saw posted. Are the classification stamps in red ink? The notations and line-outs on the face in pen? Are there redacts on any of the papers?
You're on the scene, and I've not been into the archives in years, and I was looking at completely different stuff at the time, so you'd know better than me.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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hanna
Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 701
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| That makes sense to me Navy. I have thought that for a while on some of this stuff. No sense in allowing people to see your stumbles, and in something like this there are sure to be some. That is how the truth is found. |
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arymann
PO3
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 269
Location: GA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | Just to clarify - it's not a matter of hiding facts. The facts are making their way to pixels everywhere.
It's a matter of keeping some of the discussion, speculation and comparison of the facts relatively private until the relationship between facts is proven. |
Navy, please note my post from another thread.
http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9148&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
| Quote: | I don't know if it's good or bad, but note that luciane.com has a direct link to this post in her bulleted "must read" section. There will plenty of attention paid to this thread soon.
www.lucianne.com
Quote:
The Swiftees spend some time in Naval Archives - Bingo!
Never underestimate the energy of patriotism |
This forum is being directly linked to Lucianne.com, so you know it is getting a lot of attention. The gates are open, so goes privacy.
Last edited by arymann on Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FF1047
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject: I say the more the better ... |
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I say let anyone see the raw data that is found ...
Remember, hoarding your source data is what is getting CBS in a load of trouble ... if they had allowed anyone to see their docs before going on air they might have avoided RatherGate ...
Its by having multiple eyes on the documents that different points of view can debate theories (with one of the theories winning out)
Yes, the folks that are doing the work to gather the data can choose to evaluate it for themselves before releasing any of it (fruits of their labor) but to maximize the speed at which it can be evaluated I would think publishing all as soon as is possible is the desirable course to take ...
IMHO ... 
(and yes I will be waiting eagerly to pour over anything that is found ...)
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JJC
USNA class of 1980 |
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fanningp
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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I could go either way really....these guys and gals are doing the country a real service in making sure the public has ALL of the possible information they can find....
Since I have a past in dealing with Navy communications, it's not that hard for me to interpret the text and shortened terminology and even some of the headers so it's kind of fun from a research standpoint.
BZ's all around nonetheless.....
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Pete Fanning
US Navy, DP1, '84-'92
http://peterepublic.org |
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jimlarsen
Seaman
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 197
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I'm as anxious as anyone to see the new documents, but I know that I, and probably 99.99% of the people who might try to make something out of them, simply don't have the background to adequately understand them.
If the documents are made public before they are analized and correlated, then many people are apt put their own, incorrect, interpretations on them, and then the Swiftvets would have to undo that (potential) damage as well as present their own conclusions.
There is really no need to publish the source material until a conclusion is reached and published. CBS's problem wasn't in keeping the documents to themselves, but in broadcasting their conclusions without giving access to the best copies (or originals) they had. |
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fanningp
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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What's interesting is that O'Neill will be on Hannity tonight.....what a bombshell it would be if he had something >interesting< to share.
Of course, with Alan there....I can see the whole right-wing conspiracy thing coming right back.....or maybe he'll just take the night off....
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Pete Fanning
US Navy, DP1, '84-'92
http://peterepublic.org |
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arymann
PO3
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 269
Location: GA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| fanningp wrote: | What's interesting is that O'Neill will be on Hannity tonight.....what a bombshell it would be if he had something >interesting< to share.
.... |
This is what http://www.crushkerry.com/ has to say about that. . .
| Quote: | | BREAKING NEWS - CRUSHKERRRY.COM HAS A SCOOP ON PREVIOUSLY UNSEEN KERRY NAVY DOCUMENTS. ACCORDING TO AN INSIDE SOURCE, THE SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH OBTAINED A NUMBER OF PREVIOUSLY UNSEEN NAVAL RECORDS YESTERDAY. THESE NEW DOCUMENTS VALIDATE A NUMBER OF THEIR CLAIMS AGAINST JOHN KERRY. NOTE THAT THESE NEW RECORDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE AFTER ACTION REPORTS RELEASED YESTERDAY AND POSTED BY DRUDGE. THESE BLOCKBUSTER DOCUMENTS ALL BUT ENSURE A CONTINUED ONSLAUGHT FROM THE SWIFTEES FOR THE DURATION OF THE CAMPAIGN. LOOK FOR THE NEW INFORMATION TO BE DISCLOSED IN UPCOMING SWIFT BOAT ADS |
Last edited by arymann on Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| fanningp wrote: |
Since I have a past in dealing with Navy communications, it's not that hard for me to interpret the text and shortened terminology and even some of the headers so it's kind of fun from a research standpoint.
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Confusing, too. The 13 MAR Spot Report, for example, shows a "9559" in the hdr which according to later instructions for such traffic should refer to a filing time. But 9559 isn't a time and NavyChief was pretty sure it was a record count. And I'm not sure it's entirely certain what the /, slash, means in the same messages. I'm sure that will be resolved, unless you personally know for sure. But I think a number of items might still be unresolved in anything new that is found such that they should, in my opinion, obviously be scanned into pdf and placed on the web. I would do that, myself, if I lived near the Naval Archives and had my own roll of quarters at the ready (or will they let you scan directly?). You don't want just a few to make a mistake. You want everyone to be able to correct the errors made by a few others. That's been the story of the CBS memos. Everyone had their spin and conclusions. But in a few days, the conclusion became obvious. That's how it works best.
Every item supposedly available looks relevant. Command chronologies. Kerry's awards. CTF 115 traffic, and so on. Common sense would say that if there's not a 'smoking gun', there's at least a bullet hole nearby. |
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Wing Wiper
Rear Admiral
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Chief:
It's not smart to post the data you turn up here as soon as it's discovered. Lots of us would like to see it, but curiosity killed the cat. You can bet that Kerry's campaign is downloading your discoveries as fast as you post them and formulating a defense for the damaging discoveries, plus using it to get the stories straight between Kerry and his "band of brothers". Handing them your playbook may well negate everything you find. That's my feelings, I'd personally rather miss the details, as interesting as they are, if the ultimate outcome is a compilation of data that puts the guy out of our misery.
That said, anything you need some input/feedback on, I'll take whatever time I can spare to provide my input to whatever you decide to post here. Maybe back off on putting the whole story together on a non-secure site, we're compromising the data. I'll let you decide, that's my opinion on it, though. Keep up the good work, bro. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jimlarsen wrote: |
If the documents are made public before they are analized and correlated, then many people are apt put their own, incorrect, interpretations on them
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Yes, that's how it works best. Witness the CBS memo complaints. That was possible because the documents were released publicly.
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There is really no need to publish the source material
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Sounds like good advice from the Kerry camp. Rather the only thing to do is make public what appear to be newly relevant documents, and let people judge for themselves. That's exactly what's been done with the Swift Vet documents, if I can call them that, to date. Don't change a thing. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Wing Wiper wrote: | Chief:
It's not smart to post the data you turn up here as soon as it's discovered. Lots of us would like to see it, but curiosity killed the cat. You can bet that Kerry's campaign is downloading your discoveries as fast as you post them and formulating a defense for the damaging discoveries, plus using it to get the stories straight between Kerry and his "band of brothers". Handing them your playbook |
It's not a playbook. It's just documents. And you're suddenly not giving people credit who have already seen previous documents and answered whatever DNC tales within hours. The whole point of the CBS memo story is that the documents were made public, and the truth came out. Trust people. Especially, trust people who are on your side, here. The Kerry Campaign has been incompetent, to date. There's nothing to fear there. Let people see these documents. Simple as that. |
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Stevie
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 1451
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I can see both sides of this.... putting out there and keeping it private for awhile.... I think probably the docs should be put out there and NNN and navychief etc should work on the side to decipher it all.... before posting to us.... tho, I'll probably just go crazy waiting to find out what it all means.... if our posting falls off, NNN, Navychief etc will know the rest of us are in our rubber rooms bouncing off the walls in anticipation!
the AP might put it all 'out there' anyway.... but they probably won't put anything out there that would hurt kerry..... maybe just getting a head start on what to spin....
_________________
Stevie
Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage
morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should
be arrested, exiled or hanged. |
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