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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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 Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sparkless, No my dander isn't up you have kept me amused. Your just a know nothing idiot that has been nowhere and knows nothing but what you can find at expedia.com.
Rotc, Wow what a spin, once again read what I wrote. If they are armed they are not innocent!! I am sure that there are plenty that have given up their weapons for freedom, and thats why we are there. Along with other reasons such as terrorist camps, WMD's etc. I know that if I encounter an armed enemy I won't debate what his intentions are. I also know that the ones that pretend to like us don't, so take that for what it's worth.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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"You're" not "your"
And I'll be gone for a few days, folks. I have just too much to do. Don't think I'm running from anything, okay? |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Don't get our hopes up, he will be back under another name. But he can't change the ignorance.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | Sparkless, No my dander isn't up you have kept me amused. Your just a know nothing idiot that has been nowhere and knows nothing but what you can find at expedia.com.
Rotc, Wow what a spin, once again read what I wrote. If they are armed they are not innocent!! I am sure that there are plenty that have given up their weapons for freedom, and thats why we are there. Along with other reasons such as terrorist camps, WMD's etc. I know that if I encounter an armed enemy I won't debate what his intentions are. I also know that the ones that pretend to like us don't, so take that for what it's worth. |
LOL - Reduced to snarling name calling.
Give up their weapons for freedom?
Sell that to the NRA.
How do you define an enemy in this case?
An armed Iraqi is an armed enemy?
You consider him armed if he had a gun anywhere on his property?
Since most Iraqi households have weapons that pretty much makes enemies of them all?
Or is your view of Iraqi's that they are all enemies and the difference is whether one be an armed enemy or an unarmed enemy.
Since virtually all Iraqi households are armed I suppose that would give probably enough cause to blow up the house and anyone nearby?
If guns are found after blowing up and killing everyone then that is proof enough that they were armed enemies.
Hey! If no guns were found then they must have hid them next door. - Blow that place up if it was not already collaterally damaged to rubble in doing in the first place.
Burn their hooches but don't count bodies this time.
Have you heard the saying "When they outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns?"
There is a number of neat bumper stickers "... when they take it from my cold, dead hands."
Soon after the move into Baghdad there was looting and plundering and when the free loot ran out there was more turning to robbery. So I read that soldiers were disarming Iraqi's they found to have guns. It seems that the easiest to disarm are the relatively innocent. I read that soldiers took shopkeepers weapons - AK - and he was promptly cleaned out of his business that he could not protect and was not protected for him. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Wow good spin, the difference, we fought for our right to bear arm's, the Iraqi's haven't. We are fighting for them, and until it's over YES they must give them up. I am an NRA member but I doubt that you are. Regardless when the Iraqi's write and ratify a Constitution then they will decide for themselves if they have a second ammendment right. Until that time anyone armed has to be considered hostile towards our kid's. I know that doesn't fit your agenda but even in a hostage situation everyone gets cuffed until they know who is who.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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marine4life,
This is what you wrote:
"No Rotc read the post I wrote right after I answered you, I have not seen anything that reflects that we have abused 70-90% of the Iraqi's. I disagree with POW's all together, Take no prisoners and let allah sort them out."
First of all, I never said we abused 70 - 90% of the Iraqi's. What I said was that the IRC stated that they were told by US Officers that 70 to 90% of the inmates in Abu Ghraib and other prisons were people who were picked up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and had no connection to the insurgents.
Secondly, your quote above does not make a distinction based on what was written or what was being discussed. You did not differentiate.
Thirdly, as you do not believe in POW's, that would mean that you also do not believe in the Rules of The Geneva Conventions. If this is so, then you are a hypocrite and again prove my point that you do not consider Iraqi's human beings, as it is fine for us to abuse, rape, torture, and kill them, but we would be outraged were they to behave the same way towards us.
You continue to dehumanize the Iraqis. And arguing that if they have weapons, they are enemy combatants has absolutely nothing to do with the abuses that went on in Abu Ghraib prison.
As for your personal belief that the 70 to 90% number is wrong, even if it's 50%, how can you condone this kind of behavior? |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | WTF does that have to do with current situation?
Germany declared war on US and the situation was total war.
Iraq has been a festering situation for years and a lot of Iraqi's are likely not all that trusting of US for various justifyable reasons - on being that daddy Bush encouraged them to raise up against the evil dictator while the evil Bush left Saddam all the means he needed to do the predictable slaughter that he did since it seeme that he knew full well that Bush would let him and Bush allowed him the means. |
I was simply asking why having 7% see us as liberators indicated a screwup - I don't see anyboy seeing us as liberators until reconstruction is finished and the Iraqis again have sovereignity over their country. I was comparing it to the Germans because their attitude towards the US changed rather rapidly with the implementation of the Marshall plan for the reconstruction of Germany.
| Craig wrote: | | FU "sir" - I work for a living. |
No comment necessary. |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Scott,
You ask what the Germans thought of us after we defeated them in WWII. I'm not a big fan of Tim Russert's, but in his book "Big Russ and Me", he speaks about his father serving in WWII and how his father felt proud that the US soldiers did not stoop to the same level as their German counterparts. The point being that we may have been looked upon as victors and therefore not wanted, but we were not looked upon as just a replacement oppressor.
Marine4life argues that abuse happens every day in US prisons, so why are we so shocked? Well, I'm shocked when it happens in US prisons and condemn it there as well. But all of the abuse at Abu Ghraib and the other prisons is being perpetrated by the prison guards, not by other inmates. In fact, 70 to 90% of the inmates in these prisons being abused by their guards are not even combatants or criminals, just regular Iraqis picked up in security sweeps.
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Thanks for the cogent remarks. I asking whether there is any valid comparision between invading Germany and replacing its goverment, and invading Iraq and replacing its government. Neither resulted in our being cheered as liberators. It was different in Kuwait in 1990, it seems to me, because we liberated the Kuwaitis from and invading army, so the minute we won, they had their government back. Thus, we were cheered by the Kuwaitis. I still think that we need to see whether Bremer et al. can make real progress on the civil and political fronts.
I also agree that the abuse of prisoners was completely indefensible, but it seems to me that the abusers represent a small portion of the US Military in Iraq. The prison guards would rightfully be viewed by Iraqis as "replacement oppressors," but I question whether it is valid to view the entire military presence and effort in the same light. It may be that the majority of Iraqis do view us in that light, but I still question the validity of that position. |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
You continue to dehumanize the Iraqis. |
Talk about the teapot calling the kettle black (or red, as the case may be - double pun).
Leftist ideologues did absolutely nothing as hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women and CHILDREN were put to death, often horribly.
Where were the cries of "SAVE THE CHILDREN" from MoveON and ANSWER? WHERE? Why are children with toys discovered in Iraq's myraid mass graves? ROTC DAD, WHERE WERE YOU when this happened? How did you FAIL all those CHILDREN?
ROTC DAD, let me describe the scenario of a person thrown feet-first into an industrial plastic shredder, as Saddam's regime did.
First, the feet are smashed and ground to a pulp while the victim shrieks in fantastic, searing, excruciating pain. The femorial arteries then spread blood rapidly all over the grinding gears and into the air, like a red mist from hell, as the legs are consumed and the victim screams: "EEEAAAGHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (kind of like Nick Berg did initially, just a little louder as femoral bone crunching hurts worse than slicing the muscles of the neck).
Then, the pelvis goes in. CRUNCH-CRACK-EAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHH as more blood and flesh spray the area.
Then, a more squishy noise as the soft abdomen and lungs get consumed. At this point, the person is near unconsciousness, but his last vista is his belly and intestines disappearing in front of his eyes (pretty painful too - just ask those who were drawn and quartered in the Olden Days.)
Then, lastly, the neck and head go in, and since the skull is such thick bone, it makes a pretty loud "crunch crunch" sound. The brains get flung around like so much jello. SPLAT!
Then, the remains were bagged and sent to the family.
Oh, I'm sorry if I was so graphic, but multiculturalism calls on us to repect all cultures equally. Baathist thugs got off on the above scenario. Who are we to judge? |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| fortdixlover wrote: | | ROTC DAD wrote: |
You continue to dehumanize the Iraqis. |
Talk about the teapot calling the kettle black (or red, as the case may be - double pun).
Leftist ideologues did absolutely nothing as hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women and CHILDREN were put to death, often horribly.
Where were the cries of "SAVE THE CHILDREN" from MoveON and ANSWER? WHERE? Why are children with toys discovered in Iraq's myraid mass graves? ROTC DAD, WHERE WERE YOU when this happened? How did you FAIL all those CHILDREN?
ROTC DAD, let me describe the scenario of a person thrown feet-first into an industrial plastic shredder, as Saddam's regime did.
First, the feet are smashed and ground to a pulp while the victim shrieks in fantastic, searing, excruciating pain. The femorial arteries then spread blood rapidly all over the grinding gears and into the air, like a red mist from hell, as the legs are consumed and the victim screams: "EEEAAAGHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (kind of like Nick Berg did initially, just a little louder as femoral bone crunching hurts worse than slicing the muscles of the neck).
Then, the pelvis goes in. CRUNCH-CRACK-EAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHH as more blood and flesh spray the area.
Then, a more squishy noise as the soft abdomen and lungs get consumed. At this point, the person is near unconsciousness, but his last vista is his belly and intestines disappearing in front of his eyes (pretty painful too - just ask those who were drawn and quartered in the Olden Days.)
Then, lastly, the neck and head go in, and since the skull is such thick bone, it makes a pretty loud "crunch crunch" sound. The brains get flung around like so much jello. SPLAT!
Then, the remains were bagged and sent to the family.
Oh, I'm sorry if I was so graphic, but multiculturalism calls on us to repect all cultures equally. Baathist thugs got off on the above scenario. Who are we to judge? |
While I take for granted that Saddam administration did more horrible tortures than the claimed shredder there is a number of stories such as this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1155399,00.html
When you make great issue of what may not be true it damages your credibility when you might present what might be true.
Myself does not figure that absence of a shredder to exonerate Saddam in the least.
I wold think that someone prosecuting the bastard would want to forgo witnesses who would tell the most horrible stories they could think of that might be provable to be bogus or demonstrable to be not credible. Such crap as that could lead the jury to disbelieve even what is true.
Well, consider that Winter Soldier stuff. There were some folks told bogus stories so there is folks who would exploit that of the few to discredit the whole. |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Give Craig his due:
In his link I found:
| Quote: | | Curiously, there is no mention of the book or of "mincing" as a method of execution on the Fox News website, nor does its foreign editor recall it. |
Now, this doesn't prove it beyond a "shadow of a doubt", but on the other hand, it isn't just the "Guardian", either.
Let's move on, please. (Unless someone can get Fox News to disagree). |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like the Kuwaiti-babies-removed-from-incubators hoax. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Just a question for anyone who cares to answer.
Is there a country that has taken American POWs in the last 60 years that abided by the Geneva Convention while holding our people?
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
Thirdly, as you do not believe in POW's, that would mean that you also do not believe in the Rules of The Geneva Conventions. |
Just curious, Dad. Have you actually read the Geneva Conventions?
Are you familiar with the rights due to illegal combatants (sabotuers, spies, terrorists)?
Just curious.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | Just a question for anyone who cares to answer.
Is there a country that has taken American POWs in the last 60 years that abided by the Geneva Convention while holding our people? |
If you said 59 years, the answer would clearly be no.
60 years - some of the German POW camps (primarily those run by the Luftwaffe) abided by the Geneva Conventions. Not all the camps, however.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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