SwiftVets.com

[MotherGoose]

Listen, if Kerry met secretly with the North Vietnamese in Paris in 1971, that is the kind stuff we should be pounding. That is traitorous! Is there proof positive he met with them?

[jataylor11]

Where is the rest of the CYA file? If this woman type memos for Killian's CYA file --- where are the rest of the documents from this file? His son and wife said Killian did not write these types of memos.

[DaveL]

a crazy "friend" of mine has been theorizing for days that he thought the content of the memos was true, that the republicans had possession of the originals, but since they could not be sure if there were photocopies of the real documents floating around, they decided to introduce the easily debunked forgeries...get the story out, discredit it, insulate themselves from potential real document copies showing up later! how's that for a conspiracy theory? damn, i have to see this guy tomorrow!

[lrb111]

So, even Killian's secretary says they are fakes. cool. Bearing in mind she's even a yellow dog Dem.


Now who did the cut and paste for the signatures, and tried to pass them off as authentic.

Somehow i ain't willing to trust the memory of an 86 year old Dem, that typed memos day in and day out to rememeber these. This hogwash is a little high on the pig.
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said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast.

[Paul R.]

Dave L,

Just as likely someone saw the coming "force" of the Blogosphere and it's a setup to both evaluate weaknesses and strengths, and to try to discredit a whole lot of people. Dan can crow that he was right about the content and a lot of people who don't really have in depth knowledge of what's going on will go right along... Not one person in 10 really knows the details of this. Heck, I figure this thing is good for at least 2 or 3 more (more or less) unexpected twists! (I kept wondering where Killian's typist was -- nobody ever mentioned her...)
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Paul R.

[DaveL]

Just finished watching CBS News, expecting to finally see some sense coming from them, and what did they say?!

they quote Laura Bush as saying "You know, they probably are altered and they probably are forgeries,..."

and then CBS has the nerve to say that "Laura Bush offered no evidence to back up her claim"

INCREDIBLE! CBS continues to stand by their story!

[azpatriot]

[FireFox]

Could someone go through the points thing again
as to what was required per year and how many
he actually acquired per year.

I think that's the most useful blunt at the moment
combined with his honorable discharge.

[jimlarsen]

It might also be useful to interview the sec. We know too well how easy it is to misrepresent someone's statement.

And, this should be federal criminal stuff. This is a clear attempt to influence an election with the use of fake documents.

One thing to watch. CBS might present the case that if they are fakes then the sec. statement about what his superiors thought about Bush is correct because she agreed that the docs are fake. Twisted logic, but then it's CBS.

[Hondo]

FireFox:

Not sure that this will be all that helpful, but here goes.

Two distinct issues here: reserve retirement credit and satisfactory participation. Two different answers.

1. Reserve Retirement Credit:

Members of the Reserves must earn a minimum of 50 points during each year of service for the year to count for retirement purposes (commonly referred to as a "good" year). The year starts on the anniversary of the date the individual entered the Reserves. In Bush's case, this was from May 27 of one year through and including May 26 of the following year.

A reservist gets fifteen membership points each year for being a member of the reserves. A reservist also gets one point for each day of service on active duty, 1 point for each training assembly ("drill" - typically 4 hrs in duration) attended, 1 point for each 4 hours of unpaid, authorized special work, and 1 point for each 3 credit hours of correspondence course work. (I'm working from memory, so this list may not be exhaustive, but it covers most cases.)

Bush's records show he received between 300+ and 50 points (inclusive) for each of his six years of TexANG service (the last year was cut short by his request for discharge, but he still seems to have accumulated 50 points). Each year or partial year therefore was a qualifying year of Reserve service for retirement purposes.

Bush's records show he was discharged a bit early, and was discharged honorably.

2. Satisfactory Participation.

If I understand the TexANG and USAFR standards, 90% attendance at drills, excluding authorized absences, is required for "satisfactory participation". Until 1972, Bush easily met this standard. In 1972 and 1973, his record of attendance is more spotty. Though he trained enough to achieve 50 or more points in each of his last 2 years of ANG service, he obviously did not drill with his unit of assignment in Houston 90% of the time. The key question then becomes whether or not he was authorized to perform alternative duty or otherwise released from drill obligations by his unit.

In practice, many units were (and are) fairly leniant regarding making up training, training with other units due to conflicts, and the like. That seems to be the case here.

My guess is that Bush's attendance in fact "tailed off" somewhat as he neared the end of his ANG obligation and determined he wanted to pursue other interests (e.g., Harvard Business School). However, he does seem to have gone through the process of attempting to transfer to another unit, pursuing alternate training, etc . . . , after his move to Alabama. When it became apparent he could no longer meet his ANG obligations, he appears to have sought discharge rather than simply "drifted along."

[FireFox]

Thanks for the information. I'd like to get the exact number of points or
credits as that sounds like it would be an effective answer to the argument
that he did not fulfill his duty.

It appears that some are going to take a look at the secretary too but for
now, I'd just assume that some of what she is saying is true and would like
a stock answer.

[spudhorse]

The issue isn't whether the President did or didn't do his service -- the issue is whether he lied. Under this silliness, he could do everything exactly right and be wrong if he lied about it. The whole thing is crazy.

The memos have reached a completely new level of craziness as well where probably even CBS will agree the memos are fake BUT they can go forward with "see, we told you the story was true!"

So imagine you're Mrs. Knox. A nice 86 year old Democrat sitting out there minding your own business and all of this memo stuff blows up. For some reason, you wait a week or so and call a couple newspapers and tell them exactly what they want to hear (does this sound a bit familiar?) and they run with it. She says that, in fact, there was a personal file and she typed the things that were in it. She also knows (or should know) what became of the files. I'd be worried that the next knock on the door is from some friendly FBI folks to discuss the seriousness of what she's involved herself in.

This is going to get wierder by the hour.

[Nomorelies]

I think someone should check for recent large deposits in Mrs. Knox bank account.
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Nomorelies Make a donation HERE

[Paul R.]

Firefox,

There are links back in these threads somewhere. I'll try to look a little, but the TANG memo thread is really long! Someone else may have it B4 I finish writing this post.

The problem is, the attacks are basically as follows:

1) Bush had help getting into the TANG. Col. Lively has pretty well discredited that, saying that there was not a waiting list for TANG.
(Possibly someone was stroking "Barnes" for a return favor!!!) However, this info. is not so curiously absent from MSM, for the most part.

I believe Bush also attempted to get into the Air Force (took a test?) but there were no openings. You'd think that would debunk the "running away from 'Nam" theory. Maybe someone has something more definitive on this.

2) Bush defied a direct order.

3) Bush had help getting out of that (2), and maybe in getting away with
missing some meetings, and some other unspecified "stuff". (Thereby
supposedly getting his points those last 2 years when he really should
not have.)

Ok, #1 is discredited. To discredit #3, we need someone like Lively to point out that schedules were flexible and that points could be made up later. (This has been stated, but not by high ranking TANG officers that I know of.) MY guess is that if a Lt. earned points the way Bush did his first few years, a little extra leniency was granted due to prior performance, rather than "Republican connections" in a mostly at-the-time Democratic state. But, I am not ex-military -- someone else could / should weigh in on this.)

There don't seem to be any follow up memo's from Killian on this -- not even to himself. Note that Killian & Bush supposedly discussed "options" and then the trail ends. Hmmm...

#2 seems the most serious to me. But the unanswered question is why would Killian order Bush in May to take his physical? And if Bush defied a direct order, you'd think that would generate a whole blizzard of memos. Nobody who knew Bush seems to remember such a thing. (Again, vets & military please weigh in on this.) Mrs. Knox tells us she is "in the know" -- surely she'd remember if that nice and respectful young man (Bush) defied an order?

It seems more likely to me that Killian warned Bush that if he did not take his physical, that he would be grounded. And maybe Killian wrote a memo so he could show HIS superiors that he (Killian) had followed correct procedure. But someone else may have told Bush "don't worry about it -- if you go to Alabama you won't be flying anyway."

Or, since there are two witnesses, but no paperwork to show Bush took the physical, it may have just been a bureaucratic snafu that nobody was really interested in untangling.

This is all just speculation, really. I keep saying, if someone (Killian's son, for example) can emphatically say that when Bush left the TANG, Killian was happy with him, then that should satify all but the ardent Bush haters, and we can get back to more important issues.
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Paul R.

[spudhorse]

More likely "Marion, dear, I'm sure you're going to tell the truth. And when John wins, he'll certainly want to have you up to the White House. Now let's review the truth one more time . . ."