SwiftVets.com

[tigerflyboy]

I still don't understand how people that support Bush, can deny all his short comings. For all the ruckus everybody made over Clinton, (thought it had absolute no bering on the job he did as President,everybody went out of the way to try and find something, anything to remove him from office.
Yet everytime Bush screws up, ya'll seem to sweep it under the rug, and it Does have to do with his job! A job that he has no business doing. Anyway here is an article that should make ya'll real happy. Seem the once staunch democratic south has don't a complete about face.

Enjoy

Poll: South is sticking by Bush
Iraq setbacks notwithstanding, optimism rules; war on terror gets even higher score.

By DREW JUBERA
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/19/04


Weeks after his nephew was killed while traveling in an Army convoy in Iraq, Ray Hartman prays for President Bush in handling the war. Despite his family's loss, Hartman believes Bush is doing the right thing.

"If we don't deal with this, our children will live with this threat of terror for the rest of their lives," said Hartman, 55, director of visitation ministries at First United Methodist Church in Shelbyville, Tenn., about 50 miles south of Nashville.

"The cost of freedom has always been expensive," he said. "It's not an easy thing."

A majority of Southerners seem to agree with Hartman, according to an Atlanta Journal-Constitution poll of likely voters conducted by Zogby International on Monday and Tuesday.

While Americans have been rocked by the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal, terrorists' videotaped beheading of a U.S. citizen, and continued bombings and American casualties, by almost every measure Southerners tend to be more supportive of Bush's policies and choices and more optimistic than the rest of the nation.

Almost 50 percent of people polled in 11 Southern states approve of the president's handling of Iraq, while 58 percent of Americans disapprove, according to a recent USA Today national poll. Sixty-four percent of Southerners approve of his handling of the broader war on terrorism, compared with a little more than half in the national poll.

The approval numbers reflect Southerners' voting intentions. If the election were held today, according to the AJC poll, Bush would beat Democratic Sen. John Kerry by 15 points — 52 percent to 37 percent .

By contrast, the USA Today poll has Bush ahead by 1 percentage point, and a national Zogby poll taken last week has Kerry leading by 5 points.

'No ambiguity'

While recent setbacks in Iraq may have taken their toll on the president and his policies nationally, a majority of Southerners view them as temporary, even expected, difficulties in a long, hard fight.

"We probably shouldn't have left after the first [Gulf] war — we should have finished the job then," said Mike Patisall, 45, a commercial photographer in Alexandria, Va. "As far as I'm concerned, it's the same war. Just a little 10-year break in between."

Supporters trust Bush's stay-the-course leadership style, which many see as consistent with the Christian values he professes.

"When George W. says something, that's it — it's going to happen, there's no ambiguity there," said Dan Clary, 30, a Scottsboro, Ala., field engineer. "I think Southerners like that."

Jennifer Earls, 22, of Grover, N.C., a preschool teacher, full-time student and single mother of two, declared: "Patriotism is more embedded in people in the South. A lot of it has to do with faith — we're in the Bible Belt — and patriotism goes along with that."

Dissent often unvoiced

There are dissenters. But in a region that overwhelmingly backs the president, they often seem reluctant to voice opposition.

"It seems in the Bush administration it is unpatriotic to ask a question or state a different opinion," said Hardy Clemons, retired pastor of First Baptist Church in Greenville, S.C. "That scares me. I thought it was e pluribus unum."

Fewer Southerners approve of Bush's handling of Iraq than of the war on terrorism, becoming increasingly skeptical the longer weapons of mass destruction are not found.

"The reason we invaded in the first place was Saddam Hussein was 'doing wrong,' " said Stan Maddox, 29, owner of a Decatur used car dealership. "There was talk about weapons of mass destruction, but they haven't found any."

The graphic photographs of prisoner abuse by U.S. troops in Iraq upset Southerners. Yet most see the abuses as an isolated incident. About 58 percent of those polled hold the individual soldiers involved, and their military commanders, most responsible. Sixty-five percent say Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld should remain in office, though about half hold him at least somewhat responsible for the abuses.

"I don't think we'd want to start out with a new guy now, and as far I know, he's done a good job," said Tammy May, 38, a seamstress from Paragould, Ark. "If he had prior knowledge and didn't do anything to stop it, I might say [he should resign] then."

'A higher standard'

Many Southerners believe the prisoner abuse scandal, as well as other perceived setbacks in Iraq, are overblown because of Democratic politicking. Asked which parties, if any, have attempted to use the abuse of prisoners to their political advantage, 41 percent named the Democrats. Only 7 percent accused the Republicans, while 22 percent said both parties were equally guilty.

"It's nothing but the Democratic Party taking advantage of a situation in an election year," said Dinah Bane, 45, a bail bondsman from Gainesville in Hall County. "I'm tired of watching the news because of all this crap. The media is so far left that it doesn't get reported accurately."

Others worried the prisoner abuse would overshadow the beheading of Nicholas Berg.

"I am concerned that the American people are bothered more by the small abuses we've done [to Iraqis], compared to what [the Iraqis] have done to us," said Mary Barrett, 60, a furniture company supervisor in Tupelo, Miss.

But most Southerners say any torture is unacceptable.

"They shouldn't, we shouldn't. Both ways," said Myra Marin, 31, an Arlington, Va., mail handler.

But 40 percent of Southerners think the prisoner abuses were a major setback in the war in Iraq, and 76 percent say the United States has higher moral principles for going to war than most other countries.

"It's like a policeman or a preacher. You hold people to a higher standard when you step into that role," said Vickie West, 50, an adoption social worker in Greenville, S.C. "It's like saying you're a Christian and then drinking and stealing."

Vietnam? Not really

Most Southerners don't agree with comparing the war in Iraq to the Vietnam War — "Other than we've stepped in something we're trying to scrape off our boots and we're not sure how," said John Davison, 55, an unemployed Web site designer in Concord, N.C.

And 66 percent — including many who oppose the war — say the United States should not withdraw troops until a stable, permanent Iraqi government is put in place.

"We broke it, we own it," said Robert Johnston, a New Orleans lawyer.

Speaking of U.S. troops staying beyond June 30, when the Iraqi Governing Council will take over, Barrett said: "If the terrorists are still there, we should stay until they're dealt with."

"People forget 9/11, don't they?" she added.


Contributors to this article were: Jane Dubose, Andrew Mollison, Anne Rochell Konigsmark, Ron Martz, Mae Gentry, C. Richard Cotton, Tom Baxter, Lyn Riddle and Maurice Tamman.

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

Have you come up with any good reason to support Kerry, yet?

Other than the fact that he isn't President Bush, I mean?
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[The bandit]

I suppose if Kerry or Clinton ordered ground forces to remove Saddam the lefties would have little objections because "he is one of us."

Interesting, Kerry wanted to use ground forces to remove Saddam and thought Clinton's measures were weak. Kerry went on the say he was way ahead of most of the country for supporting removing Saddam with ground forces. See below link.


Latest Questions


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[LewWaters]

Believe it or not, many of us do question some of Bush's decisions as we did Clintons. But, disagreeing with points and questioning him does not mean we want him replaced with someone many see as even worse.

Bush is far from perfect, but based on Kerry's record, both after Vietnam and in the Senate, I think he would do far worse for the country.

At least, we don't hear almost daily reminders that Bush was a National Guard hero, like we are reminded that Kerry was a hero for 4 months service.

For my money, since Kerry has come out and also said what he did in the protests was the right thing to do, why doesn't he run with that as much as he does making claims of being a hero of a conflict he says was illegal, immoral and criminal?

[tigerflyboy]

It's not so much I want Kerry, as I don't want Bush, Yes Kerry said things that were bad, at the time, but how long do you want to hold on to something from almost 35 years ago. No I don't know if he will be any better than Bush, ( He damn sure can't do any worse)

Bush has lied almost as much as Clinton was accused of doing, yet other than his sexual misconduct and some last minute furniture accqusitions, I'd have to say he was a good steward of the country. Balanced budget (vs a trillion $ defeict) low unemployment, stock market wa sstetting records for 8 years!

Wheither (sp) Kerry served 4 months or 4 years, he is a vet, and he was in a combat zone, like I said before, in my time in the AF I was witness to exaggrastion(sp) for medals, on a constant basis, (but then again most of my time was peace time), we were always trying to come up with a reason to give an msn for a retiree or a accomendation medal for 4 years of service. Not that the individual did not deserve it, but just writing those 13 point justfication letters.

All I can tell you right now is Bush has done nothing to impress me, and Kerry has done nothing to offend me. Yes I know that most Vietnam era vet's are still upset with him, but most of what I've read tell me he was trying to right the wrong that the govenment did. Did he make some dumb statements? absolutely, haven't we all. I am still open to any information that might sway me, but I admit it will be hard,I was under CHeney's direction (SEC Defense)when he started the draw down, and the base closures, doing more with less and I do feel it has hurt our military.
When Bush had a chance to stand up a show support for the vet's, he slapped us in the face. We worked for our retirements, and due to the hard conditions that alot more than me experienced they earned any compensation that the VA will give them above and beyond the retirement. But he would not know that because he did not serve.
It's not just his record in the white house either. In Texas, he set the state back 20 years form progress made in environmental, schools. He was never in a profitable business, on his own, but give him credit, he knows how to jump on and off a ship when the times right, Rangers, he was more or less a broker that wrote himself a sweet deal to make his "fortune". He has spread one liy after another starting with his Enron, afilliation, and continuing through today. The only people Bush is helping is the big business, and oil (yes sir $2.34/GAL gas). The last time gas was this high was....another Bush! Which I freely admit I did vote for because he was the best choice at the time, but his son is not a chip off the old block! So than's my story and until I see a better choice I sticking to it.

[The bandit]

No Kerry never tried to right a wrong: He tried to have it both ways and stumbled. With Bush you have a man with personal convictions, Kerry you have a man who stands for nothing. After all, how could anyone find convictions in someone who finds it unaccetable for a lawmaker to have his 'personal religious beliefs' influence him in public life.

[Big Kahuna]

tigerflyboy -- I'm interested in what branch and when you served. I've not met a full-term (I did meet a F-Troop "Unadaptable" that served a whole 6 months) vet yet who was going to vote Kerry. I'm interested in what era/branch vets I'm not polling.

I can understand being from Washington -- as most there are to the left of Castro, but I just don't understand any proud Vet voting from him.
_________________
Top 10 Weasels.com is where Kerry is Weasel #1

[carpro]

[quote="tigerflyboy"] Seem the once staunch democratic south has don't a complete about face.
quote]


The south did not do an about face. Reality is that southerners are,and always have been, conservative people with strong religious and family values.

The democrat party left them!
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

[tigerflyboy]

I grew up in the south, yes they are, as some say the"bible belt" but as late as the Clinton electon, the south was very democratic, it did not start turning until the ilustrous Al Gore ran.

BTW that article came from the Atlanta Journal Consitution. So it kinda suprised me, but did not. I've seen it coming since the last election, when they voted out Max Cleland. I guess all things change eventually, but it used to be like the old saying about flying, "Even when you die you have a layover in Atlanta." The south has always been decidedly democratic, I think alot of it has to do with the snowbirds moving south permanantly once they retire. Lord knows Flordia's population is flavored by New York.

[Gregg]

Actually, in case you haven't noticed, this site concentrates on why many Veterans are against Senator John F. Kerry for President and Commander-in-Chief. Among my reasons for opposing Kerry are:

1) His nearly verbatim recitation of KGB propaganda during his testimony before Congress. If you care to do the research you will find that the KGB's propaganda of the time is nearly exactly what he regurgitated during his testimony;

2) If you research the charges made during the so-called Winter Soldier Investigations you will find that Kerry made absolutely no attempt to validate the testimony of the alleged veterans testimony. He didn't verify that they were veterans. He didn't verify that they'd actually served in Vietnam. He didn't verify that they'd actually served in combat units. He didn't verify that they'd actually been in the combat actions wherein they claimed to have committed atrocities, or to have seen, atrocities committed. In other words, he was strictly using the Winter Soldier Investigations for political propaganda purposes in furtherance of his political career. Subsequent research failed to turn up any evidence that most of them had ever served in the US Military, much less having served in Vietnam;

3) He conspired with Senator John McCain to suppress the truth about the 614 American servicemen left behind in Vietnam after the repatriation of the 591 POWs in 1973. See the posting Mission for more details about that;

4) He is a weathervane changing his mind on the issues depending on what looks most politically opportune at the moment. Therefore, there is no way to determine how he would deal with the issues of the day;

5) A few months of campaigning has worn him out to the point where he is snapping at his Secret Service protective detail such as blaming the man sworn to stop the bullet before it hits Kerry for tripping on the ski slopes. Is that the kind of man that you want as President? How would he fare under the stress of the Presidency where the pressures are enormous and political sharks are always circling?

6) He is extremely anti-military, hence he would be an absolute disaster for national defense. The UN has NEVER posed a credible deterrant except for those occasions where the USA provided the bulk of the military forces. Example: The Korean War. Though nominally a United Nations effort, it was about 90% USA blood and treasure that was committed;

7) The only "world leader" publicly on record supporting his candidacy is retired General Giap. He was the head of the North Vietnamese military during the Vietnam War. He said that John Kerry was an essential element in the N. Vietnamese victory.

I have my problems with President Bush and Vice President Cheney. However, they are far better than Senator John F. Kerry any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Sincerely,

Gregg
_________________
Semper Fi
USMC 1973-1976

[tigerflyboy]

I finally found someone to discuss point, I commend you for a well though out post. I agree with you on some of the points, but I do not share your faith in Bush Cheney!
Here is a couple of points that I brought up:
some here to have a problem with Kerry's lack of support for "relgion" but as good christens we are taught
1, not to judge, (that's gods job)
2. to forgive (turn the other cheek)
Yet most on this site hold Kerry to a higher standard than themselves, by continuing to critise him for comments for over 30 yrs ago.
Not to mention the fact that no one seem to mind the deeds that Bush had lead our country into.
as you said I have problem with Bush, and Kerry as well, I just believe that Kerry should be allowed the chance to show what he can do, We've given Bush a 4 year trial, and I don't feel he has passed muster.

[DevilDon]

I most certainly expect to hold the President of the United States to a higher standard than myself. If he can't muster past my own mark, then I sure as hell should be running myself.

The leader of the most powerful nation in the history of the world should have a few things going for him above and beyond the run-of-the-mill guy in the street, don't you think?

And I'll personally absolve John Kerry for his wrongdoing of 30 years ago once he expresses his sorrow for his mistakes. You see, he still believes he was right to say the crap he did. You can't make any case for forgiveness when the transgressor doesn't admit to wrong. Confession compels us to acknowledge our mistakes. John Kerry's arrogance denies him this very human action.

BTW, I still won't vote for him, I'll just forgive him.

[tigerflyboy]

Forgiveness does not come with exceptions, remember one of the greatest acts of forgiveness came when god forgave the ones that cruified his son.....

Holding gruges leads to the kind of things we see over in the middle east as well as some of our own children today. school shootings and all.

I'll end this line now because I really don't want to get into religon, but thanks for your point of view.

[Marine4life]

Tigerflyboy or what ever your call sign is, Kerry hurt hundreds of thousand Vets with his lies for over 30 years. We live in a society of checks and balances and Kerry is receiving his now. I challenge Kerry to stand up and admit that he lied and ask forgivness from the Vets that he hurt so bad. Won't happen will it!! It would be political suicide for him so the only way Vets can abmonish him is to be sure that he does not become CIC. Forgive him I think not, expose him absolutly.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

[tbob38]

Does it bother any of the Kerry supporters that in all his time in the US Senate he demonstrated zero leadership? Seems kind of an odd choice for the leader of the free world doesn't it?