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Greenhat
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Joined: 09 May 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
Usually I would not cal someone a lying sack of @*$! for sake of presuming to know their motives for something i know to be a dishonest presentation. |
OK, Craig. You tell me what motivation Kerry had in turning his back on US POWs?
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Craig
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
Usually I would not cal someone a lying sack of @*$! for sake of presuming to know their motives for something i know to be a dishonest presentation. |
OK, Craig. You tell me what motivation Kerry had in turning his back on US POWs? |
Now you have managed to hit on a real basic thing of my values.
In my view of things it is rare that one is all that likely to be honest with his own self about motives.
When one accuses another of motives it tells more about the accuser than the accused even if the accusers judgment might be accidentally be right.
People see others do thing and they make judgments of their motives being good or bad or righteous or unrighteous, They make excuses for those they favor and they will not allow such for those they disfavor. They will not allow others the same justifications that they allow their selves.
Let me relate an incident where I thought some hero worshipers were idiots.
I have not attended a club - The Society for Creative Anachronism - for a long time now.
There were a few times I did Constabulary job SCA provides its own "Cops" at events. Mess with folks and some bands of ******** have retreated in the face of folks armed with big swords and know how to use them.
Anyway - in San Francisco we were having an event and the parking lot was maybe hundred and fifty yards from the event.
At the parking lot there was folks coming and going and doing this and that and there was children present.
There was some band of punks with dirt bikes - late teen early twenties ******** - who were roaring through the lot toward a dirt pile that was great fun to jump ones bikes. - Way cool. I did that sort of stuff with my scrambler but Harley too heavy for that crap.
Anyway - I wanted to discuss with them about it not being appropriate behavior where there were folks with children present. The ******* i tried to wave down just looked smart ass at me and weaved on past ....
So I was pissed and went into the midst of them and started reading the riot act. Punks must have figured my Kung Fu be wonderful since they made excuses and justifications at me.
Later my "friends" who wee drinking beer with me in the back of my van assured me that they would have come to my aid had I needed. - My impression was that there was maybe over a dozen of them. Others said there was better than twenty - but no matter - a bunch of ********.
So there I was giving a band of ******** an upbraiding and lecture about responsibility and then I went off to so the responsible thing to inform the groups constable.
By the time I got back to the parking lot the cops had come and it was funny as all hell that was when them street punks decided it was okay to talk bad and tough at me like they did not when I was just on my own. Did they feel more safe with the police to protect them? - ****! I don't think I could have whipped more than two at once of their ilk. Three at best.
Anyway I think I had a point when I started telling that story.
Maybe hero had something to do with it. Folks whose obligation was greater than mine had stood away from it. Folks thought me brave when I thought me stupid after I calmed down.
Well. I have thought about it from time to time. had things gone wrong worst scenario there might have been myself got mobbed by a band of ******** and myself getting harmed more than I might have managed to any of them.
But anyone who has been in mischief with numbers of others might know well enough that the individual is not so much at disadvantage as it might seem for sake of being outnumbered. Just in SCA sword fighting I have gone against two folks who either one of them had me outclassed and I have always taken out one of them. - after that it was one on one with someone who had me outclassed and I got my ass kicked.
Oh well. what was my point?
Does not seem that a thing of that has to do with some ******* question of what motives Kerry might have had for some ******* loaded question that some ******* might ask.
First, *******, demonstrate that there were still POW's to abandon.
After you establish that come back and let us see if you are not just an ******* asking an ******* question for ******* purpose. And don't give me feedback from ******** who are making bucks on the POW/MIA issue. I certainly feel for the folks who hang to every straw but even if there were some troops left behind it does not lessen the disgust I have for the bastards who have exploited their misery - the bastards who have cultivated their misery with spurious reports.
Maybe the Vietnamese did murder more POW's than the copped to - probably they did. I do not know - yes I do know which I think to be the more evil bastards. United States servicemen were certainly murdered out of hate. I find that more forgivable than the exploitation of them out of greed. |
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mikest
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Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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The report linked in this post says this.
| Quote: | What the report says
This is what the report says about the conspiracy theory -- and when you read this, you will see why the "activists" do not quote from the SSC report regarding their conspiracy claims. The following quote is from the executive summary.
There is at least one aspect of the POW/MIA controversy that should be laid to rest conclusively with this investigation and that is the issue of conspiracy.
Allegations have been made in the past that our government has had a "mindset to debunk" reports that American prisoners have been sighted in Southeast Asia. Our Committee found reason to take those allegations seriously. But we also found in some quarters a "mindset to accuse" that has given birth to vast and implausible theories of conspiracy and conscious betrayal. Those theories are without foundation.
Yes, there have been failures of policy, priority and process. Over the years, until this investigation, the Executive branch's penchant for secrecy and classification contributed greatly to perceptions of conspiracy. In retrospect, a more open policy would have been better. But America's government too closely reflects America's people to have permitted the knowing and willful abandonment of U.S. POWs and a subsequent coverup spanning almost 20 years and involving literally thousands of people.
The POW/MIA issue is too important and too personal for us to allow it to be driven by theory; it must be driven by fact. Witness after witness was asked by our Committee if they believed in, or had evidence of, a conspiracy either to leave POWs behind or to conceal knowledge of their fates--and no evidence was produced. The isolated bits of information out of which some have constructed whole labyrinths of intrigue and deception have not withstood the tests of objective investigation; and the vast archives of secret U.S. documents that some felt contained incriminating evidence have been thoroughly examined by the Committee only to find that the conspiracy cupboard is bare.
The quest for the fullest possible accounting of our Vietnam-era POW/MIAs must continue, but if our efforts are to be effective and fair to families, they must go forward within the context of reality, not fiction.
Read that again: ". . . documents that some felt contained incriminating evidence have been thoroughly examined by the Committee only to find that the conspiracy cupboard is bare. "
This is why the activists do not use the SSC report to support their conspiracy claims. We should ask the MIA activists cult this obvious question: If the SSC report on the live POW question is worth quoting, why do you not also quote the committee's findings on the "cover-up-and-conspiracy" theory? But, logical consistency has never been their strong point. |
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Craig
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mikest wrote: | The report linked in this post says this.
| Quote: | What the report says
This is what the report says about the conspiracy theory -- and when you read this, you will see why the "activists" do not quote from the SSC report regarding their conspiracy claims. The following quote is from the executive summary.
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You attack to damage the lucrative fodder of the exploitators.
Expect the attack to come forthwith. |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
First, *******, demonstrate that there were still POW's to abandon. |
You're real good with getting pissed off when backed into a corner and when you know you are screwed.
Demonstrate?
For almost 20 years after 1973, recovery letters and codes, even names, continued to appear on NRO satellite and aerial reconnaissance imagery.
General Chaicharn, released in 1975, stated that he had witnessed Americans still in captivity after 1973.
Both Robert Howard, MOH and Mark Smith, DSC; while in positions with Special Forces in Asia and with access to a variety of intelligence sources, both believed that there were POWs still held in SE Asia. This was in the early 80s.
There were over 600 POWs known to be held in Laos. Only one was released.
But you won't believe it unless someone brings forth a live POW (of course, General Chaicharn was just that, but he isn't American - although the US government awarded him the Silver Star - so he is discounted).
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
First, *******, demonstrate that there were still POW's to abandon. |
You're real good with getting pissed off when backed into a corner and when you know you are screwed.
Demonstrate?
For almost 20 years after 1973, recovery letters and codes, even names, continued to appear on NRO satellite and aerial reconnaissance imagery.
General Chaicharn, released in 1975, stated that he had witnessed Americans still in captivity after 1973.
Both Robert Howard, MOH and Mark Smith, DSC; while in positions with Special Forces in Asia and with access to a variety of intelligence sources, both believed that there were POWs still held in SE Asia. This was in the early 80s.
There were over 600 POWs known to be held in Laos. Only one was released.
But you won't believe it unless someone brings forth a live POW (of course, General Chaicharn was just that, but he isn't American - although the US government awarded him the Silver Star - so he is discounted). |
I have read all that crap. Again and again things have been proved to be bogus but heartless bastards with an agenda keep recycling it not giving a **** for the feelings of the folks who would grasp at any straw of hope that their loved one might somehow be returned.
I have thought that the most horrible thing that could happen today would be that some deserter or traitor might want a ticket home and he come back claiming that he had been held all this time. That would really give bastards such as $ampley material to pack his pockets some more with cash dividends from exploitation of others misery.
As for you - I do not know if you be a sucker for it or more likely another who would exploit the thing for your own ends not caring what harm you might cause with it.
There is not any way I can find to not say uncomplimentary things about the folks who would keep on with keeping some of them families in the vile grip of such as Sampley and some of his ilk.
but post some links to the stuff you carry on about and I will have a look at them to see if there be anything new that I have not seen before.
There are American now in Vietnamese and Cambodian and Thailand jails. Some might even be old enough to have been in US military back then. they were arrested for violating laws though. Probably drug laws for the most part. ?? |
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Greenhat
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
I have read all that crap. Again and again things have been proved to be bogus |
Actually, nothing has been proved bogus. What has been done by a select group including Senator Kerry is that every effort has been made to discredit any intelligence or information about US POWs.
The NRO archives are available. Go visit. Look at the photos and imagery.
I find it rather interesting and telling that you are willing to disrespect a Medal of Honor awardee, a Distinguished Service Cross awardee (who was also a POW) and a Silver Star awardee (an allied General and a POW) rather than consider that John F. Kerry lied.
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
I have read all that crap. Again and again things have been proved to be bogus |
Actually, nothing has been proved bogus. What has been done by a select group including Senator Kerry is that every effort has been made to discredit any intelligence or information about US POWs.
The NRO archives are available. Go visit. Look at the photos and imagery.
I find it rather interesting and telling that you are willing to disrespect a Medal of Honor awardee, a Distinguished Service Cross awardee (who was also a POW) and a Silver Star awardee (an allied General and a POW) rather than consider that John F. Kerry lied. |
Is it any of the pic's discussed here?
http://www.miafacts.org/phonypics.htm
If you want me to look at something then you can post link to it. I am not going to spend time to google after every reference someone is too lazy to provide.
Disrespect awardees? You are serous? |
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Greenhat
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Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
I have read all that crap. Again and again things have been proved to be bogus |
Actually, nothing has been proved bogus. What has been done by a select group including Senator Kerry is that every effort has been made to discredit any intelligence or information about US POWs.
The NRO archives are available. Go visit. Look at the photos and imagery.
I find it rather interesting and telling that you are willing to disrespect a Medal of Honor awardee, a Distinguished Service Cross awardee (who was also a POW) and a Silver Star awardee (an allied General and a POW) rather than consider that John F. Kerry lied. |
Is it any of the pic's discussed here?
http://www.miafacts.org/phonypics.htm
If you want me to look at something then you can post link to it. I am not going to spend time to google after every reference someone is too lazy to provide.
Disrespect awardees? You are serous? |
You do realize that not everything is on the net. Go visit the NRO archives. No bull about fakes. Go and do the research. I think you used too much of your own product.
Btw. none of the photos discussed on your link is an aerial photograph.
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Greenhat"][quote="Craig"][quote="Greenhat"] | Craig wrote: |
I
You do realize that not everything is on the net. Go visit the NRO archives. No bull about fakes. Go and do the research. I think you used too much of your own product.
Btw. none of the photos discussed on your link is an aerial photograph. |
Like I said - I am not going to do search for everything someone says I should look up and they too lazy to provide link. People pull that crap all the time to waste others time.
LOL - I should have kept list of just the books people insisted I should read. Keep a guy buisy for months.
While I would be interested to see your pictures I am not goiung to play your silly send someone to hunt game.
What is NRO anyway? National Review? |
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Greenhat
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Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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National Reconnaissance Office...
Are you sure you served?
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | National Reconnaissance Office...
Are you sure you served? |
Link?
Are you sure who your daddy is? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | National Reconnaissance Office...
Are you sure you served? |
Link?
Are you sure who your daddy is? |
I'm sure that it can't be you. You're too stupid.
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Craig wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | National Reconnaissance Office...
Are you sure you served? |
Link?
Are you sure who your daddy is? |
I'm sure that it can't be you. You're too stupid. |
No link then? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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It's a government office. Go Visit. Lazy git, aren't you?
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