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arjr111
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 86
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 Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This Swift Vet attack is a terrible distraction from an important discussion and election. |
Ans. Kerry himself could end this distraction, but he is seemingly so afraid to run for the Office of President, on his Senate Record, that he has chosen to make his Vietnam experience, the foundation of his campaign. Yet, Kerry still refuses to release many important military records concerning specific imformation, that would help clarify the "distracting" issues being discussed by SwiftVets.
SwiftVets, of course have every right, (a right they sacrificed for), to express their personal observations regarding Kerry's "recollections".
The truth concerning these distractions will bubble to the surface, one way or another, would we rather have it before or after this important election!
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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jdan76 wrote:
| Quote: | | Who reviews and promotes? THE SUPERIOR. And why? Because they have been trained to identify and assess character traits conducive to leadership. |
This is probably not a good avenue to go down, since Kerry's FitReps from Nam are all positive. So an important avenue is to consider a pointed reply when they start using his FitReps to counter the current charges.
Cmdr Elliott gave Kerry a "plus sign" as late as 1996. I think maybe the answer is they did not have all of the facts in 1968, and the microscope of the Presidential election has gotten everyone to start comparing notes for the first time, and this process has turned up disturbinging contradictions.
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"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject: another accusation to counter.... |
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I heard someone on TV say "O'Neill was working for Nixon back then."-- this, of course, is an attempt to discredit O'Neill and make him a "republican pawn."
We know John O'Neill was and is his own man. Because O'Neill, as a veteran and one directly slandered by Kerry, challenged Kerry's claims of US atrocities and defamation of our military back in '71, the Nixon whitehouse naturally saw him as a "person of interest." He wasn't "created" by Nixon, yet this is what is being portrayed!
I'm just contributing an "accusation" -- I'll leave making a good, concise answer to this to someone better qualified, because this issue of "being Nixon's man" is coming up now and again and it is an attempt to defame O'Neill and to deflect from the truth. |
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jdan76
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote]jdan76 wrote:
Quote:
Who reviews and promotes? THE SUPERIOR. And why? Because they have been trained to identify and assess character traits conducive to leadership.
This is probably not a good avenue to go down, since Kerry's FitReps from Nam are all positive.[/quote]
But aren't these only the fitreps Kerry has given permission to release? Aren't there more? And what's in those, that he wouldn't release them? And bottom line, after his third PH they asked him to leave. That would seem to be a final negative assessment.
I understand where you're coming from, but if focus is maintained the point can be made effectively. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, Kerry's fitreps (the parts that he has allowed access to) only appear to be good ones to someone who doesn't know how to read fitreps.
Swifts has put up a very informative essay about those fitness reports and how to read them, here:
http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Fitreps
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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jdan76 wrote:
| Quote: | But aren't these only the fitreps Kerry has given permission to release? Aren't there more? And what's in those, that he wouldn't release them? And bottom line, after his third PH they asked him to leave. That would seem to be a final negative assessment.
I understand where you're coming from, but if focus is maintained the point can be made effectively. |
I think he released all of them. The unreleased documents in controversy are of a different category. The opposition would have that info at their fingertips. Being asked by peer officers to leave is almost certainly not documented anywhere, and will only be established by first-person witnesses. [Remember the scene from In Harms Way where Cmdr Eddington (Kirk Douglas) smacks the toady ex-congressman around in the wash room and tells him to "git"]?
All I am saying is that any spokesman needs to be prepared for this, and probably should not ask for it up front unless well prepared for the counter-attack.
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: another accusation to counter.... |
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Beatrice1000 wrote:
| Quote: | | I'm just contributing an "accusation" -- I'll leave making a good, concise answer to this to someone better qualified, because this issue of "being Nixon's man" is coming up now and again and it is an attempt to defame O'Neill and to deflect from the truth. |
The sound byte answer-of-the-day is, "Nixon's dead!"
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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jdan76
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't referring to peers asking him to leave, but superiors, which actually has more credibility.
http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1726&highlight=wright
"Retired U.S. Navy officer Thomas Wright served our nation for 21 years. He also served as one of Kerry's superiors in the tough assignment of SWIFT boat (Shallow Water Inshore Fast Tactical) patrols on the southern tip of Vietnam. Lt. Wright frequently experienced trouble with Kerry. "
Wright: "When he got his third purple heart, that evening, and we didn't particularly care what it was for, we knew that he had three. That evening, I and two other people went in and told him that we felt that he should go home. It was something that he could do ... He told us that he didn't want that, it was his intention to serve his country, and the next morning he was gone. And we were happy and didn't worry about it. " |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Navy_Navy_Navy wrote:
| Quote: | Actually, Kerry's fitreps (the parts that he has allowed access to) only appear to be good ones to someone who doesn't know how to read fitreps.
Swifts has put up a very informative essay about those fitness reports and how to read them, here:
http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Fitreps |
Thanks, Echo Juliet. I was not aware of the gaps in the released FitReps. It looks like SBVT has a lot of what we are talking about covered already.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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jdan76 wrote:
| Quote: | I wasn't referring to peers asking him to leave, but superiors, which actually has more credibility. . . .
"Retired U.S. Navy officer Thomas Wright served our nation for 21 years. He also served as one of Kerry's superiors . . . |
I stand corrected, jdan. Thanks. Sometimes my fingers do the walkin' while I use my memory, not the sources.
Let's hope the other two will show up to confirm.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: another accusation to counter.... |
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| d19thdoc wrote: | Beatrice1000 wrote:
| Quote: | | I'm just contributing an "accusation" -- I'll leave making a good, concise answer to this to someone better qualified, because this issue of "being Nixon's man" is coming up now and again and it is an attempt to defame O'Neill and to deflect from the truth. |
The sound byte answer-of-the-day is, "Nixon's dead!" |
THANK YOU - now that's concise!! Would that that would do it. The problem is that the media/politicians are using the "point" of a Nixon/O'Neill connection to somehow prove there is a "republican connection" that goes "way back" -- I know, it's maddening, but they are doing it. [oh but to dream of O'Neill getting another debate with Kerry...]
I also heard recently someone on TV say that "[b]the dems and the republics are both afraid of 'this group'." [/b] What is this FEAR? I would like to hear an answer to that. I'm not a vet, just a sister of a Nam vet -- but I feel like one down to the bones and am seeing red at the demonization of the SwiftVets with the repeated, sarcastic references to 'this group'!!
I email any show immediately when I hear flippant comments by stupid hosts/guests and insist they do some research and demand they show respect for our veterans. I don't know what else to do. Our Vietnam vets have the absolute right to speak out and demand that a man who betrayed them and our nation not be elected president and Commander In Chief of our Armed Forces.
I am encouraged by the strength shown in these posts. I think this is a wave that cannot be held back. I don't think the vets are going to let mr kerry use his Vietnam "military experience" and his "heroism" and his "medals" as a reference for the whitehouse.
(sorry I strayed off topic -- and this post is too long -- you can see why I am not the one to come up with any "bytes"... promise to have shorter (more concise?) postings in future)  |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Answering Democrat ATTACKS |
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| Dwight Callaway wrote: | | This is a beginning for a list of Democrat attacks and hostile questions heard recently from talk radio callers and media commentators. Dwight Callaway, Boise |
Important thread and I'll keep watch.
"Just as when a reptile pulls in his head, I bid you strike that part of him which he guards; and be you assured, that wherever you show a desire to guard yourself, there your master will attack you."
The attacks/misinformation/lies I have been hearing from the media/politicians seem to be connected to fear -- I don't understand their kneejerk negative reactions to the SwiftVets yet. Hopefully, the vets & their supporters can unravel what all this fear is about by keeping the pressure on and not letting them get away with it! |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Answering Democrat ATTACKS |
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Beatrice1000 wrote:
| Quote: | | The attacks/misinformation/lies I have been hearing from the media/politicians seem to be connected to fear -- I don't understand their kneejerk negative reactions to the SwiftVets yet. Hopefully, the vets & their supporters can unravel what all this fear is about by keeping the pressure on and not letting them get away with it! |
It is off topic perhaps . . .
Both parties' membership has now dwindled to only a fraction of the potential electorate. TV has been the major power in party politics since President Kennedy's mastery of the medium. It is about power. And money: they were heading toward a billion dollars worth of campaigning revenues. And if fat cats can't buy influence and candidates, because the people, organized over the Internet, can tear it down, then all of it is in jeapordy. The Internet and its grassroots power (see Dean's fundraising) now challenges the major party system and the TV/media/ad driven fantasy world it is capable of creating around candidates. The Democrats have delivered up a nominee who cannot stand the light of the truth, and his own mastery of these traditional mediums of phony persuasion (which got him where he is) is now being exposed as useless and obsolete. Or at least no longer credible and no longer a monopoly.
SBVT threatens to topple all of this. It is the old "Emperor has no clothes" fable come to life. That is why they are so scared.
They knew about all this Kerry fakery from the beginning, tried to bury it, thought they had the power to do that, but it got such widespread exposure anyway that now they can't ignore it, nor can they control it.
Expect the fight to get very intense indeed.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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CuriousGeorge
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Bhist wrote: | Democrats make for terrible historians. If we followed their weird logic of, “these vets did not serve on Kerry’s boat”, so therefore their accounts cannot be trusted, then history would not be written.
*snip*
When Stephen Ambrose wrote about the European Theater in WWII,
*snip*
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Just being Nitpicky but Stephen Ambrose was a democrat!  |
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CuriousGeorge
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just a comment to remphasis some points already made.
Be professional about the responses. You will win more people that way.
The hard-core conservatives are already in this camp and the hard-core liberals are aready in the other camp.
The rest need to learn the truth and most people tend to stop listening when slurs or nasty remarks are made. Even though a valid point is being made.
Getting nasty only makes it sound like a bunch of pissed of vets over Kerries comments of the past.
I have witnessed a few debates and the moment is lost when say a Clinton comment or a Ted K comment comes up.
Stay to the topic, stay to the facts, point on the "mistakes."
But that is just me!
Last edited by CuriousGeorge on Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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