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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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 Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | Now you're saying that I misquoted something about m-16's? Sheesh!
Does anyone here have the slightest idea what Carpro is claiming I misquoted? |
There's your selective amnesia acting up again, sparky.
You really do try to follow in your candidate's footsteps, don't you? 
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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In the sense that conservatives, when feeling helpless and powerless, have to make up smears, misrepresent statements and fail to provide examples?
In that regard, yes. But that "comes with the territory" when you're engaging conservatives unable to hold their own as they defend the indefensible. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 4:35 am Post subject: |
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So lets set the record straight, Marines wife is absolutly correct and Kerry doesn't have a clue what is going on in this country. We were at WAR when Clinton took office and we were at WAR when he left. The intial Gulf WAR of 1991 did not end and only ended recently with the capture of Sadaam. We were only under a 12 year ceasefire with specific requirements. Everyone who died during Clintons era at the hand of foriegners such as the USS Cole died during a time of WAR. Our current Bush did not need anyones permission to go to Iraq he could have merely called an end to the ceasefire. By the way so could have Clinton for 8 years. So if Kerry professes that we were not at war during the Clinton administration then I suggest that he take USA 101 at the nearest college and learn about his country.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So if Kerry professes that we were not at war during the Clinton administration then I suggest that he take USA 101 at the nearest college and learn about his country. |
But he never said that. He "professed" that when Clinton left office, "not one young American in uniform was dying anywhere in this world." Only by broadening and redefining what "at war" means can the smear even sound remotely possible.
Kerry's was actually a rather bland statement, controversial here only because MarinesWife snipped out a few words to make it look like Kerry was a friggin' liar. Amazing what conservatives will try to do when given a chance.
Over in Freeperland, people make up crap like that and nobody counters it: half believe it and repeat it and the other half doesn't believe it but still repeats it.
And for the record, when I accuse someone of misquoting, I'm happy to provide the original smear and compare it to the actual original quote:
Marine's wife version (phony)
| Quote: | | Not one soldier died anywhere in this world,under President Clinton's watch |
Kerry's actual quote:
| Quote: | | When Bill Clinton left office, not one young American in uniform was dying in a war anywhere in this world." |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | "not one young American in uniform was dying anywhere in this world." |
Actually, that is worse, because it is clearly untrue. At least with the "at war" bit, he's putting a criteria on it. Around 1000 servicemembers die every year when we are at peace, about 3 a day... so if you want to use your version, Sparky, Kerry was clearly lying.
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Marine's Wife
PO3
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 267
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links, Marine's Wife.
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | sparky wrote: | | "not one young American in uniform was dying anywhere in this world." |
Actually, that is worse, because it is clearly untrue. At least with the "at war" bit, he's putting a criteria on it. Around 1000 servicemembers die every year when we are at peace, about 3 a day... so if you want to use your version, Sparky, Kerry was clearly lying. |
Looked to me like you are taking part of an awkwardly written quote of someone else and blaming Kerry for Sparky being less than clear in that paragraph.
It should be obvious to anyone with the ability to reason that Sparky has been saying all along that the quote with "at war" is the correct one.
Congress authorized Clinton to take the nation to war sometime during his administration?
Maybe the word has just been corrupted beyond all redemption by such as war on drugs. LOL - drugs are not even fighting back. Maybe we should just have war on weapons instead of war on nations or people? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | | sparky wrote: | | "not one young American in uniform was dying anywhere in this world." |
Actually, that is worse, because it is clearly untrue. At least with the "at war" bit, he's putting a criteria on it. Around 1000 servicemembers die every year when we are at peace, about 3 a day... so if you want to use your version, Sparky, Kerry was clearly lying. |
Looked to me like you are taking part of an awkwardly written quote of someone else and blaming Kerry for Sparky being less than clear in that paragraph.
It should be obvious to anyone with the ability to reason that Sparky has been saying all along that the quote with "at war" is the correct one.
Congress authorized Clinton to take the nation to war sometime during his administration?
Maybe the word has just been corrupted beyond all redemption by such as war on drugs. LOL - drugs are not even fighting back. Maybe we should just have war on weapons instead of war on nations or people? |
Actually, I'm blaming Sparky for being dumb enough to think that removing the "at war" made the quote better. After all, that is what Sparky said. And as I said, Kerry at least qualified it. Btw, Congress declares war, it does not require congressional authorization to go to war.
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: |
Actually, I'm blaming Sparky for being dumb enough to think that removing the "at war" made the quote better. After all, that is what Sparky said. And as I said, Kerry at least qualified it. Btw, Congress declares war, it does not require congressional authorization to go to war. |
I guess one must be really careful how one words things around these parts.
I had the impression that Congress had not declared war on Iraq but had given Bush some authorization to decide the issue. I thought I recalled that there were detractors of Congress who were quite critical that they shirked responsibility for doing so.
I must have heard it all wrong and it was Congress who *took us to war*. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Man, just to make Marine's Wife's misquote truthful, they have to somehow claim that when Clinton left office, we were at war.
Sheesh. Just admit it: Marine's Wife was probably just repeating something she heard on Free Republic and people over there are lying all the time.
Her quote was wrong and what Kerry said was uncontroversial. If anything, it was bland, but true.... | Quote: | | Real Quote: When Bill Clinton left office, not one young American in uniform was dying in a war anywhere in this world." |
Marine's Wife misquote: | Quote: | | Phony Quote: Not one soldier died anywhere in this world,under President Clinton's watch |
Fox News would be repeating this constantly and it would be all over the net if Kerry had said that. He didn't and it's not. Admit it: conservatives are just a bunch of friggin' liars. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | Man, just to make Marine's Wife's misquote truthful, they have to somehow claim that when Clinton left office, we were at war.
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When you first saw this "... for Truth" you certainly did not expect to find that it had any purpose nor use for truth, did you? |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm SO NAIVE sometimes! |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
I had the impression that Congress had not declared war on Iraq but had given Bush some authorization to decide the issue. I thought I recalled that there were detractors of Congress who were quite critical that they shirked responsibility for doing so.
I must have heard it all wrong and it was Congress who *took us to war*. |
English comprehension.
Did I say Congress took us to war?
You are correct, Congress did provide authorization. That is not required. The President of the United States can commit US Troops to war without congressional authorization, approval or anything else.
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
I had the impression that Congress had not declared war on Iraq but had given Bush some authorization to decide the issue. I thought I recalled that there were detractors of Congress who were quite critical that they shirked responsibility for doing so.
I must have heard it all wrong and it was Congress who *took us to war*. |
English comprehension.
Did I say Congress took us to war?
You are correct, Congress did provide authorization. That is not required. The President of the United States can commit US Troops to war without congressional authorization, approval or anything else. |
I don't know if you ever said that. I wasn't quoting you though.
The War Powers Act of 1973
Public Law 93-148
93rd Congress, H. J. Res. 542
November 7, 1973
Joint Resolution
Concerning the war powers of Congress and the President.
Resolved by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SHORT TITLE
SECTION 1.
This joint resolution may be cited as the "War Powers Resolution".
PURPOSE AND POLICY
SEC. 2. (a)
It is the purpose of this joint resolution to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgement of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicate by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.
SEC. 2. (b)
Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
SEC. 2. (c)
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.
CONSULTATION
SEC. 3.
The President in every possible instance shall consult with Congress before introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situation where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and after every such introduction shall consult regularly with the Congress until United States Armed Forces are no longer engaged in hostilities or have been removed from such situations.
REPORTING
Sec. 4. (a)
In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced--
(1)
into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances;
(2)
into the territory, airspace or waters of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat, except for deployments which relate solely to supply, replacement, repair, or training of such forces; or
(3)
(A)
the circumstances necessitating the introduction of United States Armed Forces;
(B)
the constitutional and legislative authority under which such introduction took place; and
(C)
the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement.
Sec. 4. (b)
The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and to the use of United States Armed Forces abroad.
Sec. 4. (c)
Whenever United States Armed Forces are introduced into hostilities or into any situation described in subsection (a) of this section, the President shall, so long as such armed forces continue to be engaged in such hostilities or situation, report to the Congress periodically on the status of such hostilities or situation as well as on the scope and duration of such hostilities or situation, but in no event shall he report to the Congress less often than once every six months.
CONGRESSIONAL ACTION
SEC. 5. (a)
Each report submitted pursuant to section 4(a)(1) shall be transmitted to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate on the same calendar day. Each report so transmitted shall be referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives and to the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate for appropriate action. If, when the report is transmitted, the Congress has adjourned sine die or has adjourned for any period in excess of three calendar days, the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate, if they deem it advisable (or if petitioned by at least 30 percent of the membership of their respective Houses) shall jointly request the President to convene Congress in order that it may consider the report and take appropriate action pursuant to this section.
SEC. 5. (b)
Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted or is required to be submitted pursuant to section 4(a)(1), whichever is earlier, the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted (or required to be submitted), unless the Congress (1) has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of United States Armed Forces, (2) has extended by law such sixty-day period, or (3) is physically unable to meet as a result of an armed attack upon the United States. Such sixty-day period shall be extended for not more than an additional thirty days if the President determines and certifies to the Congress in writing that unavoidable military necessity respecting the safety of United States Armed Forces requires the continued use of such armed forces in the course of bringing about a prompt removal of such forces.
SEC. 5. (c)
Notwithstanding subsection (b), at any time that United States Armed Forces are engaged in hostilities outside the territory of the United States, its possessions and territories without a declaration of war or specific statutory authorization, such forces shall be removed by the President if the Congress so directs by concurrent resolution.
CONGRESSIONAL PRIORITY PROCEDURES FOR JOINT RESOLUTION OR BILL
SEC. 6. (a)
Any joint resolution or bill introduced pursuant to section 5(b) at least thirty calendar days before the expiration of the sixty-day period specified in such section shall be referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives or the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, as the case may be, and such committee shall report one such joint resolution or bill, together with its recommendations, not later than twenty-four calendar days before the expiration of the sixty-day period specified in such section, unless such House shall otherwise determine by the yeas and nays.
SEC. 6. (b)
Any joint resolution or bill so reported shall become the pending business of the House in question (in the case of the Senate the time for debate shall be equally divided between the proponents and the opponents), and shall be voted on within three calendar days thereafter, unless such House shall otherwise determine by yeas and nays.
SEC. 6. (c)
Such a joint resolution or bill passed by one House shall be referred to the committee of the other House named in subsection (a) and shall be reported out not later than fourteen calendar days before the expiration of the sixty-day period specified in section 5(b). The joint resolution or bill so reported shall become the pending business of the House in question and shall be voted on within three calendar days after it has been reported, unless such House shall otherwise determine by yeas and nays.
SEC 6. (d)
In the case of any disagreement between the two Houses of Congress with respect to a joint resolution or bill passed by both Houses, conferees shall be promptly appointed and the committee of conference shall make and file a report with respect to such resolution or bill not later than four calendar days before the expiration of the sixty-day period specified in section 5(b). In the event the conferees are unable to agree within 48 hours, they shall report back to their respective Houses in disagreement. Notwithstanding any rule in either House concerning the printing of conference reports in the Record or concerning any delay in the consideration of such reports, such report shall be acted on by both Houses not later than the expiration of such sixty-day period.
CONGRESSIONAL PRIORITY PROCEDURES FOR CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
SEC. 7. (a)
Any concurrent resolution introduced pursuant to section 5(b) at least thirty calendar days before the expiration of the sixty-day period specified in such section shall be referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives or the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, as the case may be, and one such concurrent resolution shall be reported out by such committee together with its recommendations within fifteen calendar days, unless such House shall otherwise determine by the yeas and nays.
SEC. 7. (b)
Any concurrent resolution so reported shall become the pending business of the House in question (in the case of the Senate the time for debate shall be equally divided between the proponents and the opponents), and shall be voted on within three calendar days thereafter, unless such House shall otherwise determine by yeas and nays.
SEC. 7. (c)
Such a concurrent resolution passed by one House shall be referred to the committee of the other House named in subsection (a) and shall be reported out by such committee together with its recommendations within fifteen calendar days and shall thereupon become the pending business of such House and shall be voted on within three calendar days after it has been reported, unless such House shall otherwise determine by yeas and nays.
SEC. 7. (d)
In the case of any disagreement between the two Houses of Congress with respect to a concurrent resolution passed by both Houses, conferees shall be promptly appointed and the committee of conference shall make and file a report with respect to such concurrent resolution within six calendar days after the legislation is referred to the committee of conference. Notwithstanding any rule in either House concerning the printing of conference reports in the Record or concerning any delay in the consideration of such reports, such report shall be acted on by both Houses not later than six calendar days after the conference report is filed. In the event the conferees are unable to agree within 48 hours, they shall report back to their respective Houses in disagreement.
INTERPRETATION OF JOINT RESOLUTION
SEC. 8. (a)
Authority to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances shall not be inferred--
(1)
from any provision of law (whether or not in effect before the date of the enactment of this joint resolution), including any provision contained in any appropriation Act, unless such provision specifically authorizes the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution; or
(2)
from any treaty heretofore or hereafter ratified unless such treaty is implemented by legislation specifically authorizing the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution.
SEC. 8. (b)
Nothing in this joint resolution shall be construed to require any further specific statutory authorization to permit members of United States Armed Forces to participate jointly with members of the armed forces of one or more foreign countries in the headquarters operations of high-level military commands which were established prior to the date of enactment of this joint resolution and pursuant to the United Nations Charter or any treaty ratified by the United States prior to such date.
SEC 8. (c)
For purposes of this joint resolution, the term "introduction of United States Armed Forces" includes the assignment of member of such armed forces to command, coordinate, participate in the movement of, or accompany the regular or irregular military forces of any foreign country or government when such military forces are engaged, or there exists an imminent threat that such forces will become engaged, in hostilities.
SEC. 8. (d)
Nothing in this joint resolution--
(1)
is intended to alter the constitutional authority of the Congress or of the President, or the provision of existing treaties; or
(2)
shall be construed as granting any authority to the President with respect to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances which authority he would not have had in the absence of this joint resolution.
SEPARABILITY CLAUSE
SEC. 9. If any provision of this joint resolution or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, the remainder of the joint resolution and the application of such provision to any other person or circumstance shall not be affected thereby.
EFFECTIVE DATE
SEC. 10. This joint resolution shall take effect on the date of its enactment.
CARL ALBERT
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
JAMES O. EASTLAND
President of the Senate pro tempore.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, U.S.,
November 7, 1973.
The House of Representatives having proceeded to reconsider the resolution (H. J. Res 542) entitled "Joint resolution concerning the war powers of Congress and the President", returned by the President of the United States with his objections, to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, it was
Resolved, That the said resolution pass, two-thirds of the House of Representatives agreeing to pass the same.
Attest:
W. PAT JENNINGS
Clerk.
I certify that this Joint Resolution originated in the House of Representatives.
W. PAT JENNINGS
Clerk.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
November 7, 1973
The Senate having proceeded to reconsider the joint resolution (H. J. Res. 542) entitled "Joint resolution concerning the war powers of Congress and the President", returned by the President of the United States with his objections to the House of Representatives, in which it originate, it was
Resolved, That the said joint resolution pass, two-thirds of the Senators present having voted in the affirmative.
Attest:
FRANCIS R. VALEO
Secretary.
Acknowledgments
This file obtained from byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
Contributed by: "Andrew M. Ross" <aross@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> |
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