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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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 Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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fortdixlover,
As you seem to be a teacher, I'm wondering what you teach and what kind of education your students are getting. With that in mind, allow me to offer my services. I would gladly come to your classroom and sit down in a civilized manner and discuss all of the issues you have brought up here face to face with you and your students.
I await your reply.
ROTC DAD |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Let me just throw this out there for thought.
Pictures of prisoner abuse were illegally obtained during an ongoing investigation. Do we act on what the pictures reveal or do we shoot the messenger? We act.
Memos were illegally(undecided as of this date) obtained revealing gross abuse of constitutional responsibilities by certain senators. No question here. SHOOT THE MESSENGER!
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | Let me just throw this out there for thought.
Pictures of prisoner abuse were illegally obtained during an ongoing investigation. Do we act on what the pictures reveal or do we shoot the messenger? We act.
Memos were illegally(undecided as of this date) obtained revealing gross abuse of constitutional responsibilities by certain senators. No question here. SHOOT THE MESSENGER! |
That's the traditional leftist modus operandi.
We truly are in a cultural civil war. |
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | mikest wrote: | This coming from the party that thinks it's AOK to blow a covert CIA operatives cover because her husband wrote an oped exposing it's dear leaders lies. Or maybe a party that has the energy industry write energy policy. Or threatens and them bribes a member of congress to vote yes on a bill that they deliberately mislead, lied, about the cost.
Yeah. You've got the moral highground little boy. |
Gee, you're pretty quick with the insults when things aren't going well for you.... he's "little boy," I'm "stupid cow," someone else is "Greenforbrains" - so, who's got the high ground, again? And let's not pretend it's you, eh? 
Blew the cover on a CIA Operative? First of all, Novak has claimed that his use of the word "operative" was intended in the sense of "Washington operative," not "CIA Operative."
And apparently you're not keeping up with the news - like this:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/9/29/235714.shtml
And this:http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110004158
| Quote: | Was She Covert? Apparently Not.
The Valerie Plame kerfuffle seems to be fuffling out. Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times offers "a few pertinent facts" about her career:
First, the C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given Mrs. Wilson's name (along with those of other spies) to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994. So her undercover security was undermined at that time, and she was brought back to Washington for safety reasons.
Second, as Mrs. Wilson rose in the agency, she was already in transition away from undercover work to management, and to liaison roles with other intelligence agencies. So this year, even before she was outed, she was moving away from "noc"--which means non-official cover, like pretending to be a business executive. After passing as an energy analyst for Brewster-Jennings & Associates, a C.I.A. front company, she was switching to a new cover as a State Department official, affording her diplomatic protection without having "C.I.A." stamped on her forehead.
Third, Mrs. Wilson's intelligence connections became known a bit in Washington as she rose in the C.I.A. and moved to State Department cover, but her job remained a closely held secret. Even her classmates in the C.I.A.'s career training program mostly knew her only as Valerie P. That way, if one spook defected, the damage would be limited.
Now, let's go back to the beginning of this kerfuffle. The Nation's David Corn claimed on July 16 that the identification of Plame as a CIA "operative" in Bob Novak's column two days earlier was a "potential violation" of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, under which, in Corn's words, "it is a crime for anyone who has access to classified information to disclose intentionally information identifying a covert agent."
Under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, an employee of an intelligence service is a "covert agent" only if he has worked overseas within the past five years. Thus if Kristof is right, there is no violation here. Where did Corn get the idea that Plame was a covert agent? From her husband, Joseph Wilson, it would appear:
Without acknowledging whether she is a deep-cover CIA employee, Wilson says, "Naming her this way would have compromised every operation, every relationship, every network with which she had been associated in her entire career. This is the stuff of Kim Philby and Aldrich Ames."
This Joe Wilson is a clever one, isn't he? He didn't actually say his wife was a covert agent, so he can't quite be accused of lying. But if Kristof's account of Plame's career is accurate, Wilson misled Corn (as well as others who followed his lead, including Kristof's colleague Paul Krugman) by making a hypothetical statement based on a premise he knew to be false, which gave journalists hostile to the Bush administration all they needed to make an accusation of criminal wrongdoing. |
And a little more recently:
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/9/152348.shtml |
Interesting read.
What do you suppose the reason for outing her at the particular time? |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
Interesting read.
What do you suppose the reason for outing her at the particular time? |
Ask Novak. He's the one with two supposed White House "un-named sources."
Even Wilson himself can't get his story straight - first it could only have been Rove, then he was certain that it wasn't Karl Rove, then he wasn't sure that the whole thing wasn't just a big misunderstanding and misuse of the word "operative" by Novak.
Novak is an egocentric journalist who was trying to make a name for himself. It certainly appeared that he reveled in all that attention.... right up until it turned out that the operative had already been "made" long before and not in a deep cover situation any more. Indeed, had been transistioning to a desk job for quite some time.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: |
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I read some of this with interest and then just skimmed to the end.
I don't know what is so shocking. I would think that anyone would take for granted that either party has stuff they would not like to see the light of day.
Underhanded stuff? I scoff at the righteous indignation of either side who might discover that the other has been up to some devious dealing.
One can suppose that it takes devious dealing to flush out the other sides own.
Interesting that someone compared the illegal outing with what they said to be illegal outing of the prisoner abuse. There is a precept of law - even in UCMJ that it may well not be such a violation of law when one sees a situation and feels he must violate law for some 'emergency' purpose. - Been long time since I read that but it would appear that the person who outed the pictures saw illegal and immoral stuff going on and figured that outing the pictures was the way to deal with it. Regarding the law he may well have pass on that on that account.
If the police had reason to suspect that a person might have some contraband the police might take their evidence to get a warrant to legally search the persons property. It would be gross violation for the police to snoop through ones property to see if they could discover if a citizen might have something illegal for him to have.
Did the person who broke into the Democrats stuff know ahead of time that there was important illegal things to discover or was he just snooping to try to find something to get over on the Democrats?
While I know damned well that snooping through some Republican stuff would turn up pretty much equivalent crap I would certainly not support that someone snoop through their **** without going to jail for doing it.
[delete more that I had to say on the issue] |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | | Did the person who broke into the Democrats stuff know ahead of time that there was important illegal things to discover or was he just snooping to try to find something to get over on the Democrats? |
You're assuming that someone (Republican) broke into the Democrats stuff.
But, names of staffers were blacked out of the copies given to the press - which, along with several other points, indicates that it was probably a staffer of one of the Democratic congressmen who leaked the memos.
There's an investigation underway, but don't hold your breath - we are talking about Congress, here.
Unlike the military, which began investigations within 48 hours of a complaint being lodged by SPC Darby regarding the Abu Ghraib situation, and has already begun punishment procedings, a Congressional inquiry into "memo-gate" is more likely to turn into something that more resembles the Warren Report or the current 9-11 Commission.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
Interesting read.
What do you suppose the reason for outing her at the particular time? |
Ask Novak. He's the one with two supposed White House "un-named sources."
Even Wilson himself can't get his story straight - first it could only have been Rove, then he was certain that it wasn't Karl Rove, then he wasn't sure that the whole thing wasn't just a big misunderstanding and misuse of the word "operative" by Novak.
Novak is an egocentric journalist who was trying to make a name for himself. It certainly appeared that he reveled in all that attention.... right up until it turned out that the operative had already been "made" long before and not in a deep cover situation any more. Indeed, had been transistioning to a desk job for quite some time. |
Whatever... what you say sounds to me like a lot of opinion and making of excuse for folks you want to favor over folks you want to disfavor.
Seems quite coincidence the stuff that comes out about folks who the administration disfavors.
What do you think of McCain as a Manchurian candidate? |
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Craig
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | Craig wrote: | | Did the person who broke into the Democrats stuff know ahead of time that there was important illegal things to discover or was he just snooping to try to find something to get over on the Democrats? |
You're assuming that someone (Republican) broke into the Democrats stuff.
But, names of staffers were blacked out of the copies given to the press - which, along with several other points, indicates that it was probably a staffer of one of the Democratic congressmen who leaked the memos.
There's an investigation underway, but don't hold your breath - we are talking about Congress, here.
Unlike the military, which began investigations within 48 hours of a complaint being lodged by SPC Darby regarding the Abu Ghraib situation, and has already begun punishment procedings, a Congressional inquiry into "memo-gate" is more likely to turn into something that more resembles the Warren Report or the current 9-11 Commission. |
Hey! What do you think of that Red Cross? Are they going down the tubes of what seemed to be long tradition with cause to not talk about stuff like they have been saying of recent that they had been notifying or complaining for some time about improprieties with the prisoners.
Do you suppose that their stuff didn't get much attention for sake of someone having faith that they would not go public with their observations?
What do you think of the military setting up to have forty some guards to watch over seven thousand prisoners? |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
What do you think of McCain as a Manchurian candidate? |
I've never watched the Manchurian candidate, and have only the vaguest idea what it's about.
My opinion of John McCain, the Navy pilot and POW is very different from my opinion of John McCain, the Senator.
I would vote for even a liberal Democrat rather than John McCain, even though his story as a Navy pilot and POW is tragic and breaks my heart.
| Craig wrote: | | Hey! What do you think of that Red Cross? Are they going down the tubes of what seemed to be long tradition with cause to not talk about stuff like they have been saying of recent that they had been notifying or complaining for some time about improprieties with the prisoners. |
From what I've read, it looks like the military has been attempting to implement Red Cross recommendations wherever feasible and as quickly as practical.
Oh and with 40 guards for that many prisoners, I'd say the prisoners were pretty well outnumbered. This was a high-security detention facility, was it not? What's the ratio for high-security prisons here in the US? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's comparable.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You're assuming that someone (Republican) broke into the Democrats stuff.
But, names of staffers were blacked out of the copies given to the press - which, along with several other points, indicates that it was probably a staffer of one of the Democratic congressmen who leaked the memos.
There's an investigation underway, but don't hold your breath - we are talking about Congress, here |
Washington Times
| Quote: | U.S. feds probe congressional memo theft
New York, NY, Apr. 27 (UPI) -- The U.S. attorney for New York has been asked to investigate how 4,670 confidential Democratic party files were obtained by the Republican party.
The U.S. Justice Department announced Manhattan's top federal prosecutor, David Kelley, will lead the probe based on a call from lawmakers from both parties to avoid a Washington-based investigator.
In March, the Senate sergeant-at-arms concluded in a 65-page report that two Republican staff aides had engaged in widespread, unauthorized and possibly illegal spying by reading Democratic strategy memoranda on a Senate computer system, the New York Times said Tuesday.
The report said in an 18-month period, the aides improperly read, downloaded and printed the files concerning Democratic tactics in opposing many of President George Bush's judicial nominees.
The two aides implicated in the affair have both left the Senate. |
MSNBC
| Quote: | ...Bipartisan support
Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., called the appointment “a very good first step” and said Kelley is “independent” and “without conflicts.”
“The only thing missing is for [Attorney General] John Ashcroft to recuse himself to avoid any potential conflict of interests,” Schumer said.
Added Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas: “If there is to be an investigation, I’m encouraged to know that the decision will be made by professionals, not partisans. Now, perhaps, the Senate Judiciary Committee can get back to work.”
The report by Senate Sergeant-at-Arms William Pickle’s office blamed the intrusion on former GOP aides Manuel Miranda, who worked for Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch, and Jason Lundell, a clerk who worked on nominations for Hatch. Miranda resigned during the dispute. Lundell left last year. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Oh and with 40 guards for that many prisoners, I'd say the prisoners were pretty well outnumbered. This was a high-security detention facility, was it not? What's the ratio for high-security prisons here in the US? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's comparable.[/quote]
No. the other place where they DD'ed a couple guards. It was tents fence and concertina wire.
I was kinda down on them guards until I heard what they was set up with. That would drive most anyone nuts. They got bad deal.
Yea - the regular prison and inside it does not take many at all to keep control over a place like that.
I thought it damned silly when someone was defending them with carrying on about troops getting shot at every day and under a lot of stress. In a prison environment like that I would think the most stress for guards would be boredom at worst.
It was F*cking nuts to put that few guards over that tent and fence place with 7K prisoners who were probably mostly pissed off military - just my guess - rather than the 70 to 90 percent of mistakenly arrested citizens from around town mostly in that prison.
WTF was that? Did they torture names out of someone and then torture names out of the folks the first tortured gave them and so on?
And why would the military be sent to war completely understaffed to properly deal with thousands of prisoners? I was amazed to hear that crap on 60 Minutes II |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hey carpro,
Major stretch there as firstly the pictures weren't illegally obtained, they were being passed about by the soldiers on a cd and got into the hands of someone who thought that we really shouldn't be doing this kind of thing. There were also allegations of abuse way before the pictures ever came out. So that one doesn't wash.
Secondly, whether you like it or not, parliamentary procedure gives anyone who uses it the right to filibuster and hold up nominations. It is done all the time by both Republicans and Democrats, and it is a well-known parliamentary tactic. So quit trying to confuse the issue. It doesn't become you.
How the memos were obtained, however, is theft. They were stolen by members of the staff of a Republican Senator (whether or not NNN wants to believe it, that's the truth). In fact, the issue goes so high in that Senator's office that the person who resigned was his chief of staff. There is no debate here except among hose who have some amzaing inability to understand what theft is. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hey carpro,
fortdixlover is calling you a leftist! I wonder, does he even read the posts and who sent them?
Fortdixlover,
you made a point of stating that you were using me as a teaching aid. I offered to come to your location and debate with you in front of your students. I have yet to get a reply. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Hey carpro,
Major stretch there as firstly the pictures weren't illegally obtained, they were being passed about by the soldiers on a cd and got into the hands of someone who thought that we really shouldn't be doing this kind of thing. There were also allegations of abuse way before the pictures ever came out. So that one doesn't wash.
Secondly, whether you like it or not, parliamentary procedure gives anyone who uses it the right to filibuster and hold up nominations. It is done all the time by both Republicans and Democrats, and it is a well-known parliamentary tactic. So quit trying to confuse the issue. It doesn't become you.
How the memos were obtained, however, is theft. They were stolen by members of the staff of a Republican Senator (whether or not NNN wants to believe it, that's the truth). In fact, the issue goes so high in that Senator's office that the person who resigned was his chief of staff. There is no debate here except among hose who have some amzaing inability to understand what theft is. |
Well, let's see, there WAS an ongoing investigation and the first pictures released made it to a major TV network before they made it to SEC DEF. If that "someone" you are talking about was a soldier with copies of THOSE SAME pictures, why did he not just turn them over to military authorities? No, it appears that someone with access and in the chain of command released them with the specific purpose of embarrassing the U.S. Army and damaging the war effort.
Secondly, the embarrassed senators, know who released the incriminating memos and ,if it was a crime, I can promise you he would have been arrested and charged. These are powerful people. The reason he hasn't been charged is apparently that, as bad as they want it to be, it may not be against the law.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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