SwiftVets.com

[ASPB]

[nakona]

[tigerflyboy]

ok so you have your facts checker, here are a few articles that back up the claim of cuts. one of the ones I read each week is the military update which is about as unbiased as anything I've ever seen, it is written by Tom Philpott and he does just give the facts.
As for Nakona I HAVE given you examples of Bush's lies. You just choose not to believe them and that's your right

http://www.cbpp.org/5-17-04bud.htm

http://www.cbpp.org/2-5-04bud.htm

http://www.cbpp.org/6-2-04tax.htm

http://www.militaryupdate.com/

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0328-11.htm

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/998.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/1175.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/1252.php

[nakona]

[ASPB]

[War Dog]

Great posts guys! Keep up the civility and good work!

Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.

When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit."

[tigerflyboy]

OK so now what have you got to say, anbd these are just a few that I have found, I have 4 pages of different articles and it's growing.

Topic: Retirement

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 8/7/2002

Quote/Claim:
“We've got to do more to protect worker pensions." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
Just four months after touting pension security, Bush’s Treasury Department announced plans to propose new rules that “would allow employers to resume converting traditional pension plans to new ‘cash balance’ plans that can lower benefits to long-serving workers. Such conversions are highly controversial. Critics contend that they discriminate against older workers in violation of federal law.” - Washington Post, 12/10/02

Topic: War On Terror

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 9/23/2003

Quote/Claim:
“Iraq [is] the central front in the war on terror.” - UN speech [White House Web site]

Fact:
Knight-Ridder reported that experts now say the "Iraq war is diverting resources from war on terror." Specifically, "a growing number of counter-terrorism experts are questioning whether the U.S. invasion of Iraq has hurt rather than helped the global battle against al Qaeda." Republican and Democratic experts "are increasingly suggesting that the Iraq war has diverted momentum, troops and intelligence resources from the worldwide campaign to destroy the remnants of al Qaeda." Similarly, the U.S. Army War College reported that the Iraq war "diverted attention and resources away from the security of the American homeland against further assault by an undeterrable al Qaeda." - Knight-Ridder, 11/26/03; BBC, 1/13/04
Reference http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030923-4.html

Topic: Economy - Jobs

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 9/15/2003

Quote/Claim:
"I'm sure the numbers are beginning to look better." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"Data released today by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the Bush administration fell 437,000 jobs short in August, losing 93,000 jobs, instead of creating the 344,000 it had projected for each month after July 2003." - EPI, 9/5/03

Reference: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030915-6.html
http://www.epinet.org/newsroom/releases/03/09/030905jobwatch-gap-pr.pdf

ok so now how are you going to refute these, they came from the actual white house site.

but here's a few more from other sites:

"I first got to know Ken [Lay in 1994]." As the Enron scandal reached the White House in early 2002, Bush uttered this remark, claiming he had nothing to do with Lay until after winning the 1994 Texas gubernatorial election. It was an apparent and clumsy effort to diminish his relationship with the now-disgraced Enron chief. But in1994, Lay and Enron had been leading contributors to Bush’s campaign. And Lay—long a patron of Bush’s father—had worked with Bush in political settings prior to 1994. In a pre-scandal interview, Lay noted he had been "very close to George W." for years before1994. (In the mid-1980s, Bush’s oil venture was in a partnership with Enron.) Bush also claimed that his administration had been of absolutely no help to Enron. That might have been true during the scam-based company’s final days. But in the months preceding that, the Bush administration had assisted Enron in a variety of ways. This included appointing individuals recommended by Lay as top energy regulators and opposing wholesale price caps on electricity during the California energy crisis, a move that came after Lay (whose electricity-selling company was using manipulative tactics to gouge California) urged the White House to block price caps

"I have been very candid about my past." Bush said this during a press conference a few days before Election Day 2000. He was then in the middle of media firestorm that followed the revelation that he had once been arrested for drunken driving. Of course, this statement was untrue. He uttered it while he was trying to explain why he had not been "candid" about his arrest record. And during the campaign, he had not been "candid" about other significant matters, including what seemed to be a missing year in his National Guard service (which did not jibe with what he wrote about his service in his autobiography) and his apparent (though unacknowledged) shift from supporting abortion rights in the late-1970s to opposing them in the 1990s. He also was not "candid" about the tax plans he had pushed while governor of Texas. He always referred to them as "tax cuts" and did not mention that his major tax proposal included both tax cuts for property owners and an increase in the sales tax and the creation of a new business tax.

White House Admits Bush Lied "When Bush was asked about [the Environmental Protection Agency's report] last week, he dismissively remarked: 'I read the report put out by the bureaucracy.' ...White House press secretary Ari Fleischer fessed up: President Bush didn't actually read that 268-page Environmental Protection Agency report on climate change, even if he said he did. Fleischer was asked Monday at his daily White House briefing about Bush's comments that he'd read the report. "Whenever presidents say they read it, you can read that to be he was briefed," Fleischer said, producing laughter. --AP, June 10, 2002

I don't want this post to get to long, yes I saw that some of the quotes came from some site that might be called into question. For that matter some of the site I have been sent to visit (which I did check out, end up having republician backing or tie) not all. So don't be so quick to disreguard all the quotes, remember I have continued to say I just want the truth not Bush's truth not Kerry"s. to get that ya have to be willing to wade throught the BS

[LewWaters]

[ASPB]

Keith,

Given the nature of American Media, the only path to the truth that you're looking for is to follow both sides of a biased media. In doing so remember that 34% are self-professed liberals, 59% claim to be moderate which, based upon reporting in general, is, mildly speaking, disingenuous. Only 7% claim to be conservative. See Pew Research if you want to verify these statistics.

So, at a 5 to 1 ratio of liberal to conservative media you'll need to search out and read 5 times more conservative thought to achieve a balanced perspective. If you'd like to know of some reliable and non-extremist sources of conservative political thought I'll be glad to provide a list of my suggestions. Just let me know if you want to do this or if you wish to continue to be a lemming in the sea of liberal/progressive thought/propaganda.

Great Fishing
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB

[War Dog]

Keith, don't you think it's time you quit beating this dead horse?

Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.

When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit."

[nakona]

tigerfly -


Your first attempt, on the subject of pensions, reflects a difference of opinion, not a lie.


Your second attempt, on the subject of Iraq diverting attention from the war on terror is factually incorrect. Iraq IS the central front, as a result of the terrorists trying very hard to make the whole project fail. It too, reflects a difference of opinion, not a lie.


Your third attempt, on the subject of jobs, is disingenuous at best, and I'm giving you a LARGE benefit of the doubt there by not calling it an outright falsehood due to the use of intentionally old data. HALF of the jobs that it is claimed Bush lost have now been restored. None of this was his fault in the first place, as the recession began before he even took office. This does not represent a lie, it represents YOUR use of dated information.


Your fourth attempt, on the subject of Ken Lay, is entirely without merit, as is the standard complain regarding Bush's service. You have proved nothing, and all you have offered is supposition and opinion.


Your fifth attempt actually comes close to being valid, except that it's an issue of semantics. I will use an analogy to explain.
Bush has been criticized for taking a lot of vacations. However, the President of the United States is NEVER on vacation, no matter where he is geographically, and is on call 24 hours a day, 356 days a year.
It doesn't matter if it's 3:00am on Christmas day at Bush's ranch in Texas, and he's in the middle of having marital relations with his wife. If his attention is needed, the Secret Service will interrupt him and Bush will have to put on his clothes and go to work. His entire entourage, including the guy with the "football" follows him everywhere. He is NEVER on vacation.
Similarly, a president, ANY president, never has time to read all the documents on his desk. He literally has people to do his reading for him and give him the "cliffs notes" version. This is as it HAS to be, and is no different than what CEO's of any major corporation do.
In a press conference, nobody is going to say; "I had Roger here read the report, then prepare a written and verbal summary, which he then presented to me." He's going to say; "I read it" and he's going to expect that everyone is bright enough to know what he means.
Furthermore, to even bring UP something that trivial is evidence of how difficult you are finding it to come up with a provable lie.

But keep trying...
_________________
13F20P

[tigerflyboy]

Like I said, your not going to believe anything I give to you anyway, so what difference does it make,
of the ones, I gave you 3 of them were directly from the white house web site, not a democratic site, not a socialist site, but the site setup to give information to the public that is offically released. So Bush is a liar just like every other politician out there.

As for the others, whether you want to call it a white lie (ha ha) or not,he mannipulated the information to suit himself, I have done no durgs for the last 25 years. ANd before you jump on me for bring up old stuff, I really don't care if he snorted a little or smoked a little, if he's doing it now that's a different stroy, but you said I could not find any instance of him Lying. Nakona, the White house press secretary ADMITTED he lied, I swear you'd grip if you were hung with a new rope!
I do agree with ASBP there is more liberal information out there, that's because the current administration is conservative, just like when Clinton was in office all you heard was the conservative media all day long. this is exactly want I have been saying, I don't listen to either party line I try to search out all information.

[TRUTH108]

[nakona]

[TRUTH108]

Deleted by moderator

In the future, please limit your posts to a discussion of issues.