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ROTC DAD Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 147
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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"In March, the Senate sergeant-at-arms concluded in a 65-page report that two Republican staff aides had engaged in widespread, unauthorized and possibly illegal spying by reading Democratic strategy memoranda on a Senate computer system, the New York Times said Tuesday."
Two Republican staffers have already resigned because of this. And if you believe that just because they did something illegal they will be brought to trial, you're a lot more naive than I thought. No offense meant, but Senators Frist and Hatch have too much riding on this to ever let it go to trial.
As to the investigation on abuse, the pictures are just one line of evidence in the abuse cases. There are Red Cross statements about abuse, there are State Department memoranda about abuse, etc. etc. But even then, how do you get the photos were illegally obtained? They weren't stolen from anyone; someone gave them to CBS News. In fact, supposedly they were being passed around like snapshots among the enlisted men. |
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carpro Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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ROTC DAD wrote: | "In March, the Senate sergeant-at-arms concluded in a 65-page report that two Republican staff aides had engaged in widespread, unauthorized and possibly illegal spying by reading Democratic strategy memoranda on a Senate computer system, the New York Times said Tuesday."
Two Republican staffers have already resigned because of this. And if you believe that just because they did something illegal they will be brought to trial, you're a lot more naive than I thought. No offense meant, but Senators Frist and Hatch have too much riding on this to ever let it go to trial.
As to the investigation on abuse, the pictures are just one line of evidence in the abuse cases. There are Red Cross statements about abuse, there are State Department memoranda about abuse, etc. etc. But even then, how do you get the photos were illegally obtained? They weren't stolen from anyone; someone gave them to CBS News. In fact, supposedly they were being passed around like snapshots among the enlisted men. |
We already know I'm naive. You told me so before. Remember?
However, the reason nothing has been done is that type of act has not been established as a crime.
It is certainly unethical but so is the behavior of the senators holding up judicial nominees at the request of special interest groups. Ethics and senators seem to be mutually exclusive, anyway.
You seem to be deliberately dismissing the words "ongoing investigation". That investigation started, I believe, in January. Releasing evidence material to an ongoing investigation, can be a crime if the materials were stolen from the authorities. The crime is in the stealing. Releasing the evidence could certainly be prejudicial one way or the other to the case under investigation.
I got all them big words from my tutor. _________________ "If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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mikest PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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The pictures were released because the investigation was a sham. They were only going after the lowest troops because they did not want all of the facts coming out. That's why the two contracters who were named in the Taguda report wee still at the prison as of 2 weeks ago. Hell, the guy that recomended they use these proceedures is now in charge of the prison, Miller.
No matter how much they want to contain it at the bottem, they can't. More evidence is coming out and it is moving up. Even Gonzales is looking bad with a memo saying the Ganeva Convention doesn't apply anymore. |
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Greenhat LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 405
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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mikest wrote: | The pictures were released because the investigation was a sham. |
Uh-huh... _________________ De Oppresso Liber |
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ROTC DAD Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 147
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well, at least we agree stealing is a crime |
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mikest PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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So you take one line and roll your eyes. Do you support the fact that the people at the bottom are being demonised and the people further up covered for? Is it OK that the Govt. says that only 7 were involved and did it on their own when there are pictures of OGA people engaging in this? Does it bother you that the red cross was not allowed to go into certain sections of the prison? Does it bother you that the General in charge was over ruled by a Col.? |
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fortdixlover Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 1476
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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mikest wrote: | So you take one line and roll your eyes. Do you support the fact that the people at the bottom are being demonised and the people further up covered for? Is it OK that the Govt. says that only 7 were involved and did it on their own when there are pictures of OGA people engaging in this? Does it bother you that the red cross was not allowed to go into certain sections of the prison? Does it bother you that the General in charge was over ruled by a Col.? |
All, the left just cannot admit that their heros are ********, committing florid acts of manipulation of the courts, and doing whatever else is in those memos, the ones that have been released to the public and the ones that remain on the sequestered Congressional hard drive.
It's not worth the time to debate with these folks. You might be able to teach a pig to sing, but it only annoys the pig. Only vile people focus on the abuses of the few, while ignoring hundreds of thousands of people or millions (including children) murdered by the likes of Saddam Hussein and his henchmen. The left is in this category.
I think these folks are suffering from a sadistic and psychopathic streak. Playing politics for them has far more value than saving millions of people from brutal genocide. They acted this way in WW2, they acted this way during the Stalinist purges, they acted this way in Korea, they acted this way in Vietnam, they acted this way in Kosovo, etc. etc.
Leftists really do have a blood lust and revel in the deaths of millions. The absence of a chorus of leftist outrage over such massacres is absolutely deafening.
You cannot argue from a western, post-Renaissance, Judeo-Christian, logical perspective with these people. They believe in "feelings" not logic; they believe in "social justice", not rule of law.
THAT IS WHY THE U.S. MILITARY PAST AND PRESENT IS HORRIFIED BY THE POSSIBILITY OF A KERRY PRESIDENCY.
And these people have no clue what I am talking about.
I strongly recommend the book "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" by the late Carl Sagan for more on these issues. The chapter in that book entitled "The Fine Art of Baloney Detection" is particularly informative. See more at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039453512X/qid=1085072311/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-7020024-0494555?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
On a more humorous note:
Listen to this tune:
http://rope.wbap.com/audio/massachusetts.wma
It's entitled "Massachusetts."
Last edited by fortdixlover on Thu May 20, 2004 5:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mikest PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I've been ignoring you because you seem to be ignoring the questions I posed in the imbicilic rant thread. But here goes since you are afraid to respond to those.
Let's compare and contrast.
The memos were written by staffers. They indicate that certain groups would like certain judges kept off the bench. Many of these judges are unpalletable to a large segment of the population. Did they go about it the right way? Probably not. But the Dems have used procedures allowed with in the Senate rules. The rules that were used by the GOP during the Clinton years have been changed since the GOP took control of the Senate.
Dick Cheney starts an"Energy Task Force." The energy companies write much of the legislation. Ken Lay, a man of great integrity, meets frequently with Cheney while simutaniously ripping off billions from California. When Diane Feinstein asks to meet with Cheney to discuss Ca's energy problem she is told he doesn't have time.
Medicare needs to be overhauled. In come the big pharma companies and HMO's. They write legislation that will keep drug prices high because there is no negotiation allowed on a large scale. They also make laws against going across th border to get drugs stronger. Theyb then lie about the cost of the plan because a few Senators say they will vote no if it is over $400b. They keep the vote open for a record 3 hrs, threaten a Senator and then bribe him. It comes out that the chief actuary was threatened with being fired if he disclosed to congress that the actual cost would be $100,000,000,000 more. Their excuse, hios boss was just kidding. Now they are caught using tax payer money to make misleading advertising in favor of the law. |
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fortdixlover Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 1476
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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mikest wrote: | BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH |
This guy has lost track of the fact that the subject has moved from particular occurrences, to the bankrupt ideology of the left that has been responsible for more people going to their graves in a horrible way than perhaps even caused by the historical bubonic plague and smallpox combined.
I'm therefore starting a new topic called "The Leftist Ideology" |
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mikest PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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fortdixlover wrote: | mikest wrote: | BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH |
This guy has lost track of the fact that the subject has moved from particular occurrences, to the bankrupt ideology of the left that has been responsible for more people going to their graves in a horrible way than perhaps even caused by the historical bubonic plague and smallpox combined. |
What an F*ing joke. This moron is afraid to argue the facts so he continues to post toxic screeds. I would hope at least one honest person on this board would acknowledge that. If you are like me you have many friends from both sides of the fence and respect the opinions and ideas of those people even though yo disagree with some of their views. If you want this country to get back to honest debate, you have to call people like this out. People like this are toxic to the ideals that this country was founded on, just like the A**holes on the left that I call out on left leaning blogs. |
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fortdixlover Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 1476
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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mikest wrote: | What an F*ing joke. This moron is afraid to argue the facts so he continues to post toxic screeds. I would hope at least one honest person on this board would acknowledge that. If you are like me you have many friends from both sides of the fence and respect the opinions and ideas of those people even though yo disagree with some of their views. If you want this country to get back to honest debate, you have to call people like this out. People like this are toxic to the ideals that this country was founded on, just like the A**holes on the left that I call out on left leaning blogs. |
As far as opinions are concerned, everyone in this country is entitled to an opinion.
However:
It is one thing to say that you have a different opinion, and state that opinion. Another is to engage in a campaign of sustained cyber hooliganism, attempting to dishonor and discredit the opinions, preferences, and writings of military and ex-military people who we have every reason to believe are honorable.
These posters are hiding behind the mask of cyber hooligans. But if the hooligan's masks were removed, and they were questioned, what might the hooligans reveal about their true allegiances and agenda here? |
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Greenhat LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 405
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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mikest wrote: | So you take one line and roll your eyes. Do you support the fact that the people at the bottom are being demonised and the people further up covered for? Is it OK that the Govt. says that only 7 were involved and did it on their own when there are pictures of OGA people engaging in this? Does it bother you that the red cross was not allowed to go into certain sections of the prison? Does it bother you that the General in charge was over ruled by a Col.? |
Does it bother you that you are busy making all sorts of claims when all you have is the reports in the media, which are neither complete or unbiased.
Have you ever been involved in a military investigation? CID investigation? Article 32 hearing?
Obviously not. _________________ De Oppresso Liber |
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mikest PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Sergeant Says Intelligence Directed Abuse
By Josh White and Scott Higham
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, May 20, 2004; Page A01
Military intelligence officers at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq directed military police to take clothes from prisoners, leave detainees naked in their cells and make them wear women's underwear, part of a series of alleged abuses that were openly discussed at the facility, according to a military intelligence soldier who worked at the prison last fall.
Sgt. Samuel Provance said intelligence interrogators told military police to strip down prisoners and embarrass them as a way to help "break" them. The same interrogators and intelligence analysts would talk about the abuse with Provance and flippantly dismiss it because the Iraqis were considered "the enemy," he said.
The first military intelligence soldier to speak openly about alleged abuse at Abu Ghraib, Provance said in a telephone interview from Germany yesterday that the highest-ranking military intelligence officers at the prison were involved and that the Army appears to be trying to deflect attention away from military intelligence's role.
Since the abuse at Abu Ghraib became public, senior Pentagon officials have characterized the interrogation techniques as the willful actions of a small group of soldiers and a failure of leadership by their commander. Provance's comments challenge that, and attorneys for accused soldiers allege that the techniques were directed by military intelligence officials.
In an interview, Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, the commander of U.S. detention facilities in Iraq at the time of the alleged abuse, claimed that military intelligence imposed its authority so fully that she eventually had limited access to the interrogation facilities. And an attorney for one of the soldiers accused of abuse said yesterday that the Army has rejected his request for an independent inquiry, which could block potentially crucial information about involvement of military intelligence, the CIA and the FBI from being revealed. |
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Greenhat LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 405
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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mikest wrote: | Quote: | Sergeant Says Intelligence Directed Abuse
Washington Post Staff Writers |
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_________________ De Oppresso Liber |
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mikest PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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It's got an interview with Karpinski. Those are her own words. I realise most people around here prefer the unbiased "Newsmax," But the Post has been far more accurate.
I find it interesting and a little depressing that you have not commented on fortdixlover. |
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