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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| It's medal envy and nothing more. That's the only reason they're so fixated on diminishing the value of Kerry's medals at all costs, even to the truth. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: I don't even know how to reply to this one! |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
Honorable Officers meet with the enemy all the time. Sometimes on the field of battle; sometimes not. This assertion is ridiculous.
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John F Kerry - 4/22/1979 - Senate Foreign Relations Committee:
"I realize that we cannot negotiate treaties and I realize that even my visits in Paris, precedents had been set by Senator McCarthy and others, in a sense are on the borderline of private individuals negotiating, et cetera" 
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: I don't even know how to reply to this one! |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
Honorable Officers meet with the enemy all the time. Sometimes on the field of battle; sometimes not. This assertion is ridiculous. |
I suggest you try reading the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and the US Code. A private citizen negotiating with representatives of an enemy government is a criminal act. A military Officer meeting with representatives of an enemy government in situations other than those specified in regards to their duties is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. A military Officer negotiating with representatives of an enemy government in situations other than those specified in their duties is a violation punishable by death. The last one? That is what Kerry did. His own words, his own claims.
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Wondering
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: What point are you trying to make? |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
Do we want to choose our leaders based on what they did 30 years ago? If yes, then you have to ask the same questions of both. |
Kerry brought this on himself when he decided to make part of his platform, "Vote for me I'm a war hero." That is one of the main points in his campaign. Therefore opening it up for debate, especially since he offers little else to debate. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:40 pm Post subject: The quote above seems to say... |
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Greenhat;
The quote above your post seems to say Kerry thought he was a private individual. You argue he was not. Again, I have to wonder how many Vietnam Vets waiting to get out believed they were acting as private individuals and not as members of the Armed Services? Again, neither you nor I know, so your assertion is just speculation as to what Kerry believed he was doing and why. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Kerry never said "Vote for me, I'm a war hero"
Go to http://www.johnkerry.com and you'll see what share of his campaign is based on this concept.
I searched his home page for the terms "vietnam" "hero" "war" "medal" and "purple"
Nothing!
I did search "health care" and "Sierra Club" "law enforcement"
"teacher" "lead with strength" "economy" and "Iraq" and found information about his positions on all these issues.
His campaign is about his issues, which resonate with the public. You have to dig in deeper if you want to find his being proud of his service in Vietnam.
I admire his modesty. Bush really played up his Guard duty even to the point of lying about the duration of his service. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: The quote above seems to say... |
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It looks like you're misreading this.
Greenhat cited the fact that negotiations with the enemy are illegal whether you're a civilian or military - one under US Code, one under the UCMJ. (Though it appears that the penalties are a bit stiffer for those subject to the UCMJ.)
You notice in Kerry's statements to Congress way back then that he was already waffling and "nuancing."
As a Naval Officer, Kerry didn't know that he was subject to the UCMJ?
I find that hard to believe.
If it's true, then it brings up a whole 'nother set of questions about his fitness for ANY political office, much less the Presidency and CiC.
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: He wouldn't be the first or last to do so. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy,
Negotiations with the enemy by civilians and military personnel happen all the time and occur under many different circumstances. To say that Kerry is the only one to have ever done so outside the confines of the Codes is certainly not accurate. This is really just a straw man put forth by Greenhat so that he can bash Kerry. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | Kerry never said "Vote for me, I'm a war hero" |
You're really grasping at straws and destroying any shred of credibility you may have started with.
Many people in his campaign, many of his supporters, and even our own President have called him a war hero.
You don't have to say the exact phrase, "Vote for me, I'm a war hero" to imply exactly that.
On the stump, Kerry has not found very many places or situations in this campaign which do not, somehow, remind him of Vietnam.
He was there for four months, but everything he sees seems to remind him of those 144 days or whatever it was.
His ability to bring Vietnam into every kind of topic of conversation is legendary - to the point that it's become fodder for comics and satirists.
(hyperbole alert for sparky - I know you're a real stickler for every word meaning exactly what the dictionary describes - I was exaggerating with the use of the words "everything" and "every" to make a point.)
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: He wouldn't be the first or last to do so. |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Navy_Navy_Navy,
Negotiations with the enemy by civilians and military personnel happen all the time and occur under many different circumstances. To say that Kerry is the only one to have ever done so outside the confines of the Codes is certainly not accurate. This is really just a straw man put forth by Greenhat so that he can bash Kerry. |
Okay, you'll have to refresh my memory - where did Greenhat say that Kerry was the only one to have done this?
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: The quote above seems to say... |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Greenhat;
The quote above your post seems to say Kerry thought he was a private individual. You argue he was not. Again, I have to wonder how many Vietnam Vets waiting to get out believed they were acting as private individuals and not as members of the Armed Services? Again, neither you nor I know, so your assertion is just speculation as to what Kerry believed he was doing and why. |
There are differences between Officers and Enlisted. Make sure your son or daughter understands that before they take their commissioning oath. It is obvious that you don't understand it. Obvious that John F. Kerry ignored it.
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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And I'm not convinced that Kerry only met with the N. Vietnamese.
NNN: Go to http://www.johnkerry.com and you'll see what share of his campaign is based on this concept.
I searched his home page for the terms "vietnam" "hero" "war" "medal" and "purple"
Nothing!
Kerry has good reason to be proud of his service and I don't blame him one bit when he brings it up.
In fact, I'd be bringing it up A LOT more, considering how pitiful his opponent looks in this regard. That might explain the "medal envy" I see permeating this board. |
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dhedges53
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:41 am Post subject: |
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EDITED by Admin
Dhedges - I have PM'd you and now I will ask you publicly to control yourself. Posts where people are attacked are not allowed.
Thanks,
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | And I'm not convinced that Kerry only met with the N. Vietnamese.
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What does "only" have to do with anything? Who else do you think he met with? The Soviets? The Chinese? Aretha Franklin?
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Greenhat,
You come back to the UCMJ as if you are the only one who has ever read it or interpreted it. Yet you seem to be quite willing to ignore it when it is inconvenient to your point of view, which only goes to prove my point.
I have asked what you think of Rumsfeld and by association the military command which allowed acts of torture. If I remember correctly, those are also illegal under the UCMJ. Yet you have never pointed to the UCMJ when discussing this, only when you discuss Kerry's "abbreviated tour of duty." |
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