SwiftVets.com

[God and Country]

Back in the days of the Cold War, the U.S. had a nuclear-weapons doctrine called Mutual Assured Destruction, or MAD for short. This doctrine held that if the U.S. were attacked with weapons of mass destruction, or WMD, we would immediately and without debate counter-attack the homeland of the perpetrator in such a way and with such overwhelming nuclear force as to make the cost of the initial attack too much to bear.

For instance, if the Soviet Union or the Chinese would have attacked us with WMD in the Cold War, we would have counter-attacked at the very least by destroying their 100 largest cities. The theory was that once you have destroyed the 100 largest cities of any society, even an evil empire, that society effectively ceases to exist, perhaps for several generations, thus deterring any WMD attack. Variations of this same nuclear doctrine were held by our Cold War allies and advisories, including the evil empire.

Although gruesome sounding, the beauty of MAD is that it worked. Even though both the U.S. and the Soviet Union were armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, none was ever used. In fact, both sides went to great lengths to establish hardened and redundant command, communication and control systems to prevent the accidental or unauthorized launch of nuclear weapons, fearing the dire consequences.

The primary reason MAD worked is because it was simple and unambiguous. Both sides let the other side know in no uncertain terms that a nuclear first strike would be followed immediately by an overwhelming nuclear counter-strike destroying the heartland, culture and society of the attacker. This was a price even the most evil 20th century dictators would not even contemplate.

We now have a new enemy, Islamic terrorism, hellbent to either enslave or destroy us. This enemy is in many ways much harder to cope with than an evil empire. It does not have an army, an economy, an infrastructure, a capital or a state to attack. This enemy refuses to show itself on the field of battle so we can destroy it with our superior weapons and tactics.

However, Islamic terrorism could not exist if it did not enjoy comfort, support and succor from the Islamic societies from which its members are recruited. Besides the overt state support from Syria, Iran, pre-invasion Iraq, Libya, Sudan, North Korea, etc., this enemy also enjoys popular support in Islamic states. The popular support of the terrorists is much larger than it is politically correct to discuss in most forums in the West. But, does anyone doubt that bin Laden would be elected dictator-for-life in Saudi Arabia if that nation had free elections? Let's not allow political correctness to blind us or kill us. The terrorists are merely an extreme form of widespread corruption, totalitarianism and venality prevalent in Islamic states and societies worldwide.

Now, here is the urgent problem. The Islamic terrorists are seeking nuclear weapons to destroy us. If and when they acquire a nuclear weapon with the help of their state sponsors, they will use it in the U.S. homeland without warning. Can you imagine the effect of just one nuclear weapon being detonated in New York or Washington? In addition to the initial horrific destruction and casualties, the U.S. economy and perhaps the world economy would go into a depression that would make the Great Depression seem like Sunday school. Investment would stop for fear of further nuclear attacks. If they have one, maybe they have more? Our wealth would be dramatically reduced, and the economy would be in chaos for at least a generation. The American way of life would be dramatically altered, perhaps permanently. In short, the Islamic terrorists would win.

The stakes are as high as can be, and our current strategy of planting democracy in the Middle East may work too slowly or not work at all. How do we prevent that first nuclear attack and mobilize the world, even the Islamic societies, against the terrorists' nuclear ambitions? We need a new nuclear doctrine that puts everybody's skin in the game. We need a new nuclear doctrine that places the American people, the American society, the American economy and the American way of life far above politeness and political correctness.

I propose that the U.S. immediately adopt and publish the following nuclear doctrine:

In the event of a WMD attack by terrorists on the U.S. homeland or U.S. military facilities overseas, the U.S will immediately and without discussion use its immense nuclear weapons capabilities to destroy the 100 largest Islamic cities on earth, regardless of state, and destroy all of the military facilities of Islamic-dominated states. This will include all of the capitals and at least the 10 largest cities of all Islamic-dominated states and the "holy" cities of Mecca and Medina. In addition, North Korean cities and military installations will be destroyed.
Now suddenly everybody from Casablanca, Cairo, Damascus, Riyadh, Tehran, Islamabad, Pyongyang and Jakarta have skin in the game. The last thing they want would be a WMD attack on the U.S. It would mean certain destruction of their societies. They might even be motivated to actually and feverishly work against Islamic terrorism instead of the tepid lip service they currently give. Those "freedom fighters" currently being cheered in the streets would be transformed to deadly threats in the very societies that spawned them.

The beauty of this doctrine is that it encourages the 1.2 billion Muslims to actually prove that they are adherents to a "religion of peace," and it holds all Islamic states and North Korea accountable for their behavior. If you don't want your cities on the target list, you have to earn your way off the list. Give us the head of bin Laden on a stick, and you may get a pass. Shut down your nuclear programs in an open and verifiable way, and you can earn your way off the target list.

Another advantage of this doctrine is that it doesn't cost a nickel. We have the necessary weapons and delivery systems in place. This would only require a fraction of our existing nuclear warheads. I presume the platform of choice would be Ohio-class ballistic missile submarines patrolling the Indian Ocean.

Of course, the hand wringers, peaceniks and leftist elites would shout and scream bloody murder about how aggressive, unfair and politically incorrect this doctrine appears. However, I believe it would accomplish the same thing as MAD – namely, the successful deterrence of nuclear holocaust. All we need is the will to declare it.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41771

God bless America.


_________________
Conservative and proud

[I B Squidly]

"I recently conducted a study of this proposition for the Bland Corporation. For reasons that are all too obvious we concluded that a Dooms Day Device was not a practical solution.... -Dr. Strangelove

As a policy MAD worked as a deterant with the Soviets because they had a motherland they called home. Mohamedism values the purity of the sterile, empty desert. The terrorists are nihilists with sectarian, tribal and family prejudices that hold no sympathy for the metropoles of the Middle East. For them Cairo, Damascus, Bagdad et.al. are pestulent centers of secular filth and corruption, unclean. They would actively seek to trigger the nuclear response, welcome the destruction of their domestic enemies and welcome the global condemnation of the US.

Aside from the megacorpse an all out nuclear assault on the mideast would cause it would leave Israel in a shroud of fallout, cripple and irradiate a goodly portion of the world's oil production, take the Pyramids off tourist plans for years and basically pi$$off the everyone for no good purpose. McNamara and Kissinger could agree on the negative cost/benefit analysis.

The madness of David C. Atkins' MAD proposal is demonstrated by his il-considered and gratuitous nuke strike on Korea. It's someone else's turn to use nuclear weapons in Asia.

[PhantomSgt]

I feel Plagiarized: look at my post.

[url] http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17520&highlight=nuke[/url]

It is amazing how many of our so-called friends in the world were involved in Saddam's underhanded dealings. It is apparent they had a real good thing going until the USA went in and screwed it up for them. No wonder they are not happy with us.

The French had billions of dollars in trade and the Russians were not far behind. It is in their best interest that we fail in Iraq so they can go back to business as usual.

Iran is involved in the same way you can be sure with both of these countries and I imagine Syria is too. When does the USA finally say enough is enough and put a stop to this nonsense? I have a few suggestions for the new administration:

First: Break off diplomatic relations with France and list them as a “State Sponsor of Terror”, for their behavior in the Oil for Food scandal, their continued support of Iran and Syria and the statements made by their leaders. We have had fewer problems with Castro in the last decade than with Chirac and his socialist government. Of course France should be expelled from NATO and any other trade or bi-lateral agreements terminated. This may wake the French people up to the need for regime change in France if they want to play in our sandbox.

Second: The third world run United Nations needs to be put on notice. When you ignored the UN sanctions and traded with Saddam you violated a trust and now the credibility of the organization is nearly beyond repair. Kofi is the Captain of a sinking ship and I am sure he will bail before it goes to the bottom. When the heads of member states are directly implicated in the undermining of our efforts to curb terror, pull their UN credentials and tell them by sundown to get out of Dodge. It is our country and we get to say who stays, UN or not. Foreign aid and any other support for the expelled country will be immediately terminated.

Third: Put each and every nation on notice who is developing, storing or hiding WMD/s that we know who they are and have targeted their industrial and population centers with our nuclear arsenal. In the case that WMD/s are used in this or any other country involved with the war on terror, we will launch a full-scale retaliatory nuclear attack against them to prevent transfer of such materials in the future. Fess up now like Libya recently did or place your future existence on this planet in jeopardy.

We have been tossing softballs for far too long and the time has come to put some fast hardballs right into the strike zone.

Do any of you have some suggestions? Comment here.

Oh well at least we know what forum they turn to for expert opinions.


_________________
Retired AF E-8

Independent that leans right of center.

[I B Squidly]

PhantomSgt,

A couple of few things:

I appreciate your intention and ardor but it's not generally a good strategy to announce your strategy.

The French insisted we use nukes to save them at Dien Ben Phue. When they realized they were safe behind the US shield they renegged on NATO (originally quartered in Paris) in the 60s and began their posturing to the disaffected 3rd World. Announcing war against them or the rest of the world for that matter leaves them no wiggle room. And, wiggle room they need more than we need implacable foes.

I agree it's too long since the world has seen a nuclear weapon fired in anger and it needs the edification. Sept. 11th gives justification but as yet there's no satisfactory target. We'd have saved many good soldiers and Marines nuking Bagdad, Fallujah etc. but would it have gotten Sadam or killed more enemies than friendlies? The world may wake to the fact that Bagdad was no Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo or Hiroshima. We're better for it.

As to the UN? It's some fine real estate with deadbeat tenents. I suggest we us our next US contribution to pay the cost of shipping them to Haiti or Sao Tomes e Principe under guard if need be.

On a personal note I envy you the Marianas and the close acquaintence of chimarros.

[blue9t3]

God and Country!-----Where do I sign up?
Your plan might need a little messaging but I think we need some teeth behind the bark. I sure that in short order we might see Osamas head on a silver platter, served up with a nice Iranian side dish!
_________________
MOPAR-BUYER

[MikeM]

MAD worked because the Russians are rational.

Not sure the same can be said about the jihadies and others who are hell bent to send themselves off in persuit of thier 72 virgins!

[God and Country]

Muslims are speaking. Is America listening?

" I am prepared to sacrifice my life. All I want is martyrdom. I am willing for all my children to become martyrs, and Allah willing, may I die as a martyr," said mother of a Lebanese martyr. I didn't know some of the 72 virgins are lesbians.

God bless America.


_________________
Conservative and proud

[tony54]

God and Country said:

[GenrXr]

I hate to say this but we have lost New York City to a nuclear bomb. We have not even begun our war on terror and the ultimate destruction of lower Manhattan will be the beginning of the war on terror. When 9/11 occurred I was in my apartment and just waking up to check drudge as I do ritually every morning to catch anything big occurring. I could not believe what I saw a picture of a jetliner hitting one of the trade towers. This was before the second one hit yet I knew what was happening. I immediately called my father to discuss and convey my plan of action. I told my father we had to sit down with Putin and carve up the Middle East for our 2 countries. We would split it evenly and fairly 50/50. I went further to explain we must have a massive re-education plan where we wash the brains of the ignorant. We will have to take community leaders and bring them to the US and send them through rigorous educational instruction and possibly even have them live with an American family so they can begin to understand how civil humans live. My system would of course cause dissent amongst many and many would die but the ends would justify the means. These are evil societies we are dealing with and our notion of freedom is foreign to them. They cannot appreciate or understand our benign nature while being the greatest superpower the world has ever known without tasting it firsthand. The people of the Middle East are not fit to govern themselves although I hope I am wrong. Most likely we will lose lower Manhattan to a bomb and then all bets are off. My conversation with pops will see fruition.

We also need to start prosecuting people like Moore for treason. We need to start playing hard ball with these evil communist/liberal/demons who allow millions of Christians to die in Rwanda and the Sudan while deciding we have to go to Kosovo to aid the militant Muslims because a thousand of them died to the Christian Serbians defending themselves. The party of the left is a party of pure evil bent on destroying the fabric of our existence and it is important we wake up and fight the right battles and send clear messages through out the world. Otherwise, we will become extinct.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy

[BuffaloJack]

Does the threat to vaporize include the UN ? If not, It should.
Oil-for-Food May Have Funded 9/11 Attacks
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/12/4/121101.shtml
_________________
Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71)

[Doc Farmer]

On another board, one of my posters brought up the fact that if we were to retaliate after a WMD attack by nuking the 100 largest Muslim cities, it would include many locations outside the Middle East.

Including Paris.

I think I like the idea even more now!
_________________

Fat, Bald and Ugly - And PROUD Of It!

[badbobusnret]

It seems like Mr. Atkins was really sincere about what he wrote or that some other posts are possibly tongue and cheek?

But what if? After 9-11 and Afghanistan I have given this issue (nuclear response) some thought as an ex military planner....and it isn't something one would like to dwell on.

What if Al Queda or any other "Apocalyptic Terrorist" should get their hands on and deliver (IE detonate) a nuclear weapon (not dirty weapon) on a major US city? Something measured in kiloton(s). We all know they would use it.

(For nature of the enemy read Ralph Peter's article at:
http://www.ceto.quantico.usmc.mil/papers/WHEN_DEVILS_WALK_THE_EARTH.pdf )

What recourse/action should the US take (God forbid), post event? Do we have a policy in place for retalition or deterrent action? Is a "proportional response" required? Who do we "attack? What do we attack? Should morality be involved here?

Any thinking person knows that the MAD policy or massive retaliation policies of the Cold War were put in place against a symmetrical threat (the USSR), not assymetrical, and that as irrational as some of it's actions were, the US government treated the Soviets as "rational" and whose self-preservation was essential. The Apocalyptic Islamo-facist Terrorist are none of the above. On that I believe we all can agree.

The 100 city response recommended above by Atkins would definetly attrite the population and centers of civilization of the Arab-Muslim world but would it be an effective response? More importantly, if you could not tie the attack to any nation state or group of states would it be appropriate (moral). If you think about it probably not a workable or implementable response policy.

I propose something different based more on a cultural-military response. Let's review the facts. Terror networks like Al Queda do not base in any one location (obvious- lesson learned Afghanistan) nor do they even support any particular Arab or Muslim country. Hidden and abetted in these countries by the populations, they appear safe from symmetrical warfare...

But let us look at what THEY hold dear. Life, including their own, their kinsman, and all of the rest of us are of no consequence to them, but what tangible fixed location is sacred to them? Mecca/Medina of course. As we all know one of the tenets of Islam is the pilgramige or Hadj. It is important to them. Nothing else appears to be. That location is where the response could be.

Post attack, give the location (and the Saudis) 48 hours to clear itself of people and then detonate a small nuclear device that would make it un approachable for several decades. Sand turns into glass when heated...
This must be a proportional response advertised in advance. Used post attack with no advertisment puts us back at square one.

This policy could be made public and be put into effect before the un-thinkable happens here in the US. The uproar both here, abroad and in the Muslim would be unbelievable...but maybe, just maybe, "rational" members of that culture would stop the madness before that response could ever be used. We all know those countries could rid the world of the Islamo Facists if they reallywanted to. And that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

Certain aspects of MAD/Massive Retaliation seem crazy to those who did not grow up hiding under their desks when a civil defense siren went off, but it did work. we're still here right?

This whole thing truly pains me to think about (I am no Dr. Srangelove) but what reasonable ideas does anybody else have?

The threat hangs out there......

[scotty61]

After 9-11, we found out that Al-Quada was based out of Afghanistan and there was a cry to nuke it to the ground. Afghanistan has just held free elections and if we had followed the "nuke it til it glows crowd" this wonderful event would not have occured as the voters would have been radioactive waste. Same is true of Iraq. I suggest we stop this train of thought as it shows us to be little better than the tinfoil hat crowd. We're better than this people.
_________________
John Kerry. A Neville Chamberlain for our times.

[God and Country]

I AM READY TO DO BATTLE.

Battle Hymn of the Republic

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword
His truth is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps
His day is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnish`d rows of steel,
"As ye deal with my contemners, So with you my grace shall deal;"
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel
Since God is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

God bless our troops.


_________________
Conservative and proud

[PhantomSgt]