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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: What would Rommel think about Prince Harry Choice of Uniform |
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It has been said Harry actually wanted to dress in an SS uniform and settled on the Nazi brown shirt. The Royals then tried to spin the incident as Harry’s intention of the uniform being from the Afrika Korps. This spin obviously didn't work and much has been commented on Rommel since. Do the Brits hold hostility towards Rommel for their losses during the campaign or do they grudgingly admire him as "one of the good Germans"? Regardless, I think we can get some insight from Rommel himself by reading his sons reflection in 'The Rommel Papers' as well as Desmond Young’s ‘Rommel, The Desert Fox’.. The Germans during WWII have always fascinated me for many reasons, but the prime reason is how can the worlds most technologically advanced and quite arguably best educated people become victims of a very dangerous group think which led to those very same people who had invented sociology and psychology to blindly follow a mad man down a path of destruction which led to their nation being destroyed and the deaths of millions. The people of reason and logic lost their ability to stand up for that which is right and blindly followed the proletariat movement which as it always does led to a totalitarian state whose neck was strangled by a mad man. It is important we pay attention to history such as Hitler’s speeches where rising to power he proclaimed there are two Germanys one of the poor and one of the rich. This speech Hitler often expounded upon is basic proletariat approach which John Edwards used this past campaign to appeal to the radical left. I pointed this out during the election, but nowhere in the MSM did they explain how similar the speeches the left gave were to speeches voiced in the past by such great men as Hitler, Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin to name a few responsible for more then a 100 million deaths in the past century. The comparison between the Moore/Kerry left and the rise of Nazi Germany is striking. It is important we remember history and learn from it and understand the dangers which the radical left poses to our Republic. Back to Rommel, of particular interest to me is a conversation Erwin had with his son Manfred and his reflections upon it in ‘The Rommel Papers’. Pp 428-429
| Quote: | Dear Manfred, 25 Dec. 1943
…In a fortnight you’ll be leaving home to enlist as a Luftwaffe auxiliary and a new life will begin for you….You must learn to obey orders of your superior quickly and without argument. Often there’ll be orders which you don’t like, often you won’t understand the point of them. Obey without question. A superior cannot go into a long palaver about his orders with his subordinates and there’s no time to give reasons…..
However, my father now began to recognize more and more clearly that there are limits to the obedience of even a high ranking commander. On the one side there were Hitler’s orders, the orders of a man who wanted to drag his whole people down with him into the pit of disaster; on the other there were eighty million Germans-eighty million people fighting, not to be senselessly sacrificed in the glowing embers of their own homes, but for existence. In the later months of 1943, my father felt the time for decision approaching him. We have often been asked when my father made up his mind to intervene in Hitler’s plan to drag Germany down to destruction with him. Perhaps some clue may be given by a conversation I had with him in December 1943. I remember this conversation particularly well as it concerned primarily my own affairs.
There was at that time, a great propaganda drive going on all over all over Germany to persuade young men to opt for the Waffen-S.S. rather than the army. Brightly-coloured placards blazed out on every street corner. It was well know that the S.S. troops were far better equipped than the army, and they had a more handsome uniform. So one day I decided to opt for the Waffen-S.S. and told my father of my decision in order to get his consent.
He reacted strongly. “That’s out of the question,” he said. “You’ll join the same force as I’ve served in over thirty years.”
My father normally used to leave me a great deal of freedom in matters of this kind, and so I began to argue my point of view. But this time he cut me short. While, he said, he perfectly well recognized the quality of the S.S. troops, under no circumstance did he want me to be under the command of a man who, according to his information was carrying out mass killings.
“Do you mean Himmler?” I asked.
“Yes,” he answered, and instructed me to maintain absolute silence about the whole affair. The war was not going at all well and he had heard that people like Himmler were trying, by actions of this kind, to burn the bridges of the German people behind them I think he was not at all certain at that time whether Hitler knew anything about what was going on, for no mention of the mass executions had ever been made at the Fuehrer’s H.Q. And perhaps he would never have brought himself to the decision to end the war-by a revolt is necessary-if he had not received further information in the early months of 1944 which confirmed these crimes and gave some idea of their extent. From that moment on, all my fathers’ inner allegiance to Adolf Hitler, whom he had once admired, was destroyed, and he brought himself, from his knowledge of the Fuehrer’s crimes, to act against him. |
Desmond Young a British officer captured by Rommel in Africa was later released with enough provisions for his men to make the nearest city. Although given orders to kill all POW’s upon no re-supply of his men and the subsequent withdrawal from Africa, Rommel destroyed the orders and allowed all POW’s to go free. Desmond Young wrote ‘Rommel, The Desert Fox’ and further elaborates on page 192-194,
| Quote: | Rommel returned from North Africa in March in 1943, having, as they say, “had” Hitler. For a long time he had known that Keitel and Jodl were both professionally and privately his enemies. Goering he despised and distrusted, suspecting him of having been prejudiced by Kesselring against himself and the Afrika Korps. Recently he had been warned by General Schmundt that his stock had slumped with the Party bosses and particularly with the mysteriously influential Bormann. He had, in fact, no friend at court except Schmundt himself, who still spoke up for him. However, until after El ALamein he continued to believe that the trouble with the Fuhrer was his entourage and that he would act fairly and see reason if only he would free himself from his sycophants.
Now he had no such illusions. He had come to realize that there was in Adolf Hitler neither fairness, generosity nor loyalty to those who served him. Nor was he open to reason. This was a distressing revelation to Rommel, a straightforward, simple man with little subtlety, except in battle. Since he had never been a political soldier and was completely out of touch with current politics, the shock was at first purely personal and professional. He had lost faith in a man who had been his friend and patron and was head of the armed forces. It was only gradually that he came to see that more than victory was being endangered, that, thanks to Hitler, Germany was on the way to degradation as well as to defeat.
His eyes were opened during the months he was in Germany before he took over command of Army Group B. He had long disapproved of the Nazi “scum”. For the first time he now learnt at first hand from German officers what the Gestapo and the S.S. had done in Poland and Russia, what they were still doing there and in the occupied countries of Western Europe. For the first time he learnt of slave labour, of the mass extermination of Jews, of the battle of the Warsaw ghetto, of gas-chambers and the rest of it. In North Africa it had been assumed that Germany was fighting “a Gentleman’s war.”
It was characteristic of Rommel that he went straight to Hitler himself with these discoveries. “If such things are allowed to go on,” he said, “we shall lose the war.” He then proposed the disbandment of the Gestapo and the splitting up of the S.S. among the regular forces. At the same time he begged Hitler to stop the enlistment of very young boys. “It is madness,” he said, “to destroy the youth of the country.” Such ingenuousness must have staggered Hitler. It may have amused Himmler, if Hitler communicated Rommel’s proposals to him. Strangely enough, the Fuehrer condescended to argue with Rommel at some length. But he left no doubt in the latter’s mind that he had not the slightest intention of changing his methods. Rommel thus realized that his master’s crimes were of commission also. |
Rommel was approached by Dr. Goerdeler, Mayor of Leipzig, and Colonel-General Beck, former Chief of the General staff about assuming command of Germany in order to avert a civil war before they made the second assassination attempt on Hitler. After the attempt failed and Hitler learned through interrogation of captured conspirators of Rommels involvement, Rommel was given the choice of taking a suicide pill and given a state funeral and his family a pension for life or lose his entire family. Rommel took the pill and thus ended his life.
In conclusion, I believe Rommel would have disapproved not only of the Nazi uniform Prince Harry wore, but the attempt to compare the uniform to Rommels Afrika Korp uniform. Furthermore, Rommel would be wary of the radical left and its wresting control of the Democratic Party. He would see similarities between Hitler and Moore/Zinn/Chomski/Edwards/Dean/Kerry and the like and their sycophant followers.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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GM Strong
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1579
Location: Penna
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Many of the German military professionals hated the SS and Gestapo and were very wary of them. Himmler wanted control over the POWs, but Goering(maybe the only good thing he ever did) and Wehrmacht hierarchy resisted. Goering was in fact personally aquainted with General Vanaman the Sr. POW at Stalag Luft III. Thank God the SS and Himmler did not get what they wanted. Rommel would have been one of the those opposed.
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8th Army Korea 68-69
Last edited by GM Strong on Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| GM Strong wrote: | | Many of the German military professionals hated the SS and Gestapo and were wary of them. Himmler wanted control over the POWs, but Goering(maybe the only good thing he ever did) and Wehrmacht hierarchy resisted. Thank God the SSand Himmler did not get whta they wanted. Rommel would have been one of the those opposed. |
Agreed GM Strong, also their were no SS divisions in Africa which Rommel was very grateful for. Rommel discusses at length taht although Hitler would place SS divisions under the militarys command, they only had to answer directly to the Hitler. Basically, Rommel couldn't control the SS people under him. I would also like to add in Desmond Youngs book there is a passage which I couldn't find so I cant quote it exactly, but basically Rommel first learned of the mass executions of Jews while still in Africa. A high ranking officer friends with Rommel arrived near the end of the African campaign and told Rommel he believed the SS was killing all the Jews. Upon hearing that Rommel remarked "we just lost the war, the Americans will never stop their advance until there is no more Germany." By this time Rommel was very aware of American production and supply capability with his battles throughout Africa and the British constant resupply by America.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: |
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The remnants of the Afrika Corps were settled in POW camps here in Phoenix. The had high morale, thought the 'atrocity' stories were propaganda but were generally well disciplined. Comically, several had built a raft, escaped and hoped to float the Salt River to the Gulf of California. They didn't know that the Salt seldom flows more than 1 year out of ten.
Later POWs were interned in Texas and elsewhere often hired out as farm labor. The regular wehrmacht were demoralised by the failing war effort and guilt. The camps were terrorised by killer squads of SS. US authorities often looked askance relying the SS to impose good order.
Rommel was implicated in the 'Bomb Plot' for not reporting a conspirator. It was cyanide or the murder of his family.... and the Nazis gave him a big send off. |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| I B Squidly wrote: | The remnants of the Afrika Corps were settled in POW camps here in Phoenix. The had high morale, thought the 'atrocity' stories were propaganda but were generally well disciplined. Comically, several had built a raft, escaped and hoped to float the Salt River to the Gulf of California. They didn't know that the Salt seldom flows more than 1 year out of ten.
Later POWs were interned in Texas and elsewhere often hired out as farm labor. The regular wehrmacht were demoralised by the failing war effort and guilt. The camps were terrorised by killer squads of SS. US authorities often looked askance relying the SS to impose good order.
Rommel was implicated in the 'Bomb Plot' for not reporting a conspirator. It was cyanide or the murder of his family.... and the Nazis gave him a big send off. |
Rommel was found guilty of accepting command of Germany should an assassination attempt succeed. Rommel was never directly involved in any assassination attempt, rather just complicit in the desire they succeed.
Also, do you have any reference to the POW's from the Afrika Korps being placed in AZ & TX? I would love to read up on it and check it for factual accuracy.
The reason I ask this is Rommel when had he to retreat from Africa sent his army ahead of him and protected their rear flank so he wouldnt have any men captured. Eisenhower had just arrived with 5000 tanks and a gazillion men and with Rommel down to less then 50 tanks he was in a definately ****** position, but from all reports he did protect his rear flank.
He actually attacked Eisenhowers army with his few tanks in a mini Achtung Panzer at daybreak to fool them into thinking their strength was more then it was and to give their retreating army a pass. It is said that Rommels tank commanders at over 30 miles an hour over rough desert terrain were knocking out American tanks on the fly by nothing more then skilled judgement of the fire.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:59 am Post subject: |
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GenX,
Try:
Title: Stalag, U.S.A. : the remarkable story of German POWs in America /
Author: Gansberg, Judith M.
Publisher: New York : Crowell, c1977.
Description: ix, 233 p., [4] leaves of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.
or
Title: The faustball tunnel : German POWs in America and their great escape /
Author: Moore, John Hammond.
Publisher: New York : Random House, c1978.
Description: xv, 268 p., [4] leaves of plates: ill. ; 22 cm.
I was searching for a newer title but couldn't find the one I had in mind. |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I B Squidly wrote: | GenX,
Try:
Title: Stalag, U.S.A. : the remarkable story of German POWs in America /
Author: Gansberg, Judith M.
Publisher: New York : Crowell, c1977.
Description: ix, 233 p., [4] leaves of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.
or
Title: The faustball tunnel : German POWs in America and their great escape /
Author: Moore, John Hammond.
Publisher: New York : Random House, c1978.
Description: xv, 268 p., [4] leaves of plates: ill. ; 22 cm.
I was searching for a newer title but couldn't find the one I had in mind. |
Thank You
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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Mother
Former Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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You need your own talk show.
I love reading when you get it on like this.
I think this is part of the reason I don't want SVPFT to go home.
I'll be good. I won't stomp my feet and pout. But I damn sure will miss listening to you talk. |
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