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kate
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Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: Panels illustrate veterans' lingering rift over Vietnam War |
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LubbockOn-line
Sunday, March 20, 2005
Panels illustrate veterans' lingering rift over Vietnam War
BY JOHN REYNOLDS
AVALANCHE-JOURNAL
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The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have formally stood down, but their effect on last year's presidential election continues to stir debate.
The group, which ran a series of television advertisements last year attacking presidential candidate John Kerry's actions both during and immediately following his military service in Vietnam, was the subject of two discussion panels Saturday on the last day of the fifth triennial Vietnam Symposium.
The symposium was held by Texas Tech's Vietnam Center, which also maintains the largest non-governmental archive of materials related to the Vietnam War.
By design, Swift Boat supporters and detractors each got a panel to discuss whether Kerry got what he deserved or if he was the victim of a smear campaign.
Taken together, the panels clearly revealed that the divisions between certain Vietnam veterans' groups persist to this day.
For Kerry critics, the reaction to his candidacy was visceral, according to B.G. Burkett.
Burkett has been the subject of numerous media reports for independently investigating the military records of high-profile Vietnam veterans and exposing some of them as frauds.
Kerry forced the issue by highlighting his service at the Democratic National Convention, Burkett said.
"He's the one that made Vietnam an issue and then acted surprised when people who served with him got up and called him a liar," he said.
Members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, the group which Kerry joined after leaving Vietnam, responded that the Swift Boat supporters themselves relied on lies when attacking Kerry.
Alex Primm, who was an acquaintance of Kerry's in VVAW, said the issue remains emotional to this day because many people's identities remain closely tied to their service in Vietnam.
"For many people, that was the highlight of their career," he said. "Some people who support the Swift Boat veterans felt we were attacking their careers and lives."
Burkett agreed that many veterans are emotional about their service. He said that's because of the emotional bond developed among soldiers under fire.
Many of them were offended by Kerry's work with VVAW, a group that re-enforced negative stereotypes about Vietnam veterans, according to Burkett.
It was a "small group, but they got all the press," he said.
Neither Primm nor Burkett thought the two sides will come together anytime soon.
Primm compared the conflict to religious wars like the Thirty Years War.
"We wonder why people could fight like that," he said. "It's almost a religious thing for most people."
It will probably take another generation to come along for the arguments over Vietnam to become resolved, he said.
"It's not a matter of reconciliation," Burkett said. "There is no middle ground. It's never going to be reconciled."
Larry Bailey, who helped organize another anti-Kerry group called Vietnam Veterans for Truth, said, "You had to be in my shoes to understand the catharsis we felt about getting involved" in the anti-Kerry movement.
The accusations made by Kerry against his fellow veterans as a member of VVAW were an injustice "that's never repayable. We're just trying to recover our reputations," Bailey said.
He was asked at one point why he continues to bash Kerry now that the election is over.
He replied that the group wants to be prepared in case Kerry tries again for the White House in 2008.
"We want to drive a stake through his heart," he said. |
kerry can never walk away from this, seems he should be the one standing down and giving up his sugar plum dreams of the presidency
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mtboone
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Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 470
Location: Kansas City, MO.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Panels illustrate veterans' lingering rift over Vietnam |
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It will probably take another generation to come along for the arguments over Vietnam to become resolved, he said.
"It's not a matter of reconciliation," Burkett said. "There is no middle ground. It's never going to be reconciled."
The accusations made by Kerry against his fellow veterans as a member of VVAW were an injustice "that's never repayable. We're just trying to recover our reputations," Bailey said.
He was asked at one point why he continues to bash Kerry now that the election is over.
He replied that the group wants to be prepared in case Kerry tries again for the White House in 2008.
"We want to drive a stake through his heart," he said. [/quote]
kerry can never walk away from this, seems he should be the one standing down and giving up his sugar plum dreams of the presidency[/quote]
It is funny that the VVAW would say we told lies and ignore their lies before the Fulbright Commission and that many never served in VN or the military. I agree with the last statement, "We want to drive a stake through his heart."
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Terry Boone PCF 90
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Uisguex Jack
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me the demographic or statistic of: how many soldiers and officers in Kerry's direct sphere...... (Those on the swift boats and those supporting the swiftboats) signed the original letter at some point over the last two years?
How many of Kerry's commanders spoke up in his defense?
My sense, and I may be wrong, my sense is and was that the vast majority of those whom commanded Kerry spoke up on the side of the Swift vets
Anybody got some hard numbers in this regard? |
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kate
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Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Whiskey Jack...
From the main page, FAQs
http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/index.php?topic=FAQ
| Quote: | John Kerry has been able to convince about 13 men who served on Swift boats in the Mekong Delta to support him, 7 or 8 of whom were at various times crew members on his own 6-man boat. Those are the men the Kerry campaign so prominently featured at the Democratic Convention. The photograph we have posted at SwiftVets.com shows Kerry with 19 of his fellow Swift boat OICs (Officers In Charge) in Coastal Division 11. Four OICs were not present for the photograph. Only three of his 23 fellow OICs from Coastal Division 11 support John Kerry.
Overall, more than 250 Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam. The Kerry game plan is to ignore all this and pretend that the 13 veterans his campaign jets around the country and puts up in 5-star hotels really represent the truth about his short, controversial combat tour.
The Swift boats fought in groups, so the other OICs who fought alongside Kerry know him well and can accurately describe what he did and did not do. In many cases Kerry's fellow OICs had a better perspective than his own crew members, since the latter had no way to determine whether he was following orders and how well he worked with his peers. |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam. |
This is Kind of a big deal, and this is the way I remember it. No small deal, this is a big deal.
I'm getting more and more ancy to see just what the dickens is entailed in his complete millitary record. It is not for naught that he's put out so much double talk thus far. There must be some pretty damn good stuff in there. |
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MarineBrat
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Right edge of the loony left coast.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Uisguex Jack wrote: | | Quote: | | That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam. |
This is Kind of a big deal, and this is the way I remember it. No small deal, this is a big deal.
I'm getting more and more ancy to see just what the dickens is entailed in his complete millitary record. It is not for naught that he's put out so much double talk thus far. There must be some pretty damn good stuff in there. |
Yes siree bob! And I'll be signing that 180 any day now! We've got our crack staff of geneticists working on those pig/pteradactyl mutants, and working on drag/lift ratios, and we're almost onto something!
Exerpt from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886726/
MR. RUSSERT: Many people who've been criticizing you have said: Senator, if you would just do one thing and that is sign Form 180, which would allow historians and journalists complete access to all your military records. Thus far, you have gotten the records, released them through your campaign. They say you should not be the filter. Sign Form 180 and let the historians...
SEN. KERRY: I'd be happy to put the records out. We put all the records out that I had been sent by the military. Then at the last moment, they sent some more stuff, which had some things that weren't even relevant to the record. So when we get--I'm going to sit down with them and make sure that they are clear and I am clear as to what is in the record and what isn't in the record and we'll put it out. I have no problem with that.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you sign Form 180?
SEN. KERRY: But everything, Tim...
MR. RUSSERT: Would you sign Form 180?
SEN. KERRY: Yes, I will. But everything that we put in it, Tim--everything we put in--I mean, everything that was out was a full documentation of all of the medical records, all of the fitness reports. And I'd call on those who have challenged me, let's see their records. I want to see the records of each of those people who have put up a challenge, because some of them have some serious questions in them, and it hasn't been appropriate...
MR. RUSSERT: So they should sign Form 180s for themselves as well?
SEN. KERRY: You bet.
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God Bless Our Veterans Of The USA! Thank you for your service!
If you can read, thank a teacher. If you can read in English, thank a Veteran! |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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John Kerry said: | Quote: | | I'm going to sit down with them and make sure that they are clear and I am clear as to what is in the record and what isn't in the record |
Me, I got a host of problems with this statement. When I go to court for a traffic ticket I don’t' get allot of opportunity to dictate what my record is or is not.
Ah the bourgeois aristocracy, will they never learn..... never learn.
http://www.SWIFTBOATARCHIVES.COM/BAGHDADKERRY_0001.wmv |
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George F. Thompson
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Fort Walton Beach, Fl 32547
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: John: 180 |
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It appears to be pretty straight forward that John Kerry has issued a challenge that if he signs a Form 180 then his detractors should also sign a Form 180 and release their military records. I, for one have no problem with signing the 180. Perhaps we could make a conserted effort for all members of this forum, retired, active duty, reservists, national guardsmen and all veterans to sign a Form 180 and send the package along with Kerry's signed 180 to an independent review panel and without the usual spin release the results. Of course then Kerry could claim the vast right wing conspiracy has tampered with his records. Maybe we could have Jaun Williams, Dan Rather and Chrissy Mathews conduct the review. at least, that way, we could be assured of an unbaised review.
George F. Thompson |
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MarineBrat
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Right edge of the loony left coast.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Uisguex Jack wrote: | | http://www.SWIFTBOATARCHIVES.COM/BAGHDADKERRY_0001.wmv |
LOL! That was a camera angle I hadn't seen before! 
Thanks
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God Bless Our Veterans Of The USA! Thank you for your service!
If you can read, thank a teacher. If you can read in English, thank a Veteran! |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I, for one have no problem with signing the 180. |
If Kerry's chalenge is factual Then each person he alludes to should be able to : | Quote: | John Kerry said:
Quote:
to sit down with them and make sure that they are clear and I am clear as to what is in the record and what isn't in the record |
What's fair for the goose is fair for the gander. |
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