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MarineBrat
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Right edge of the loony left coast.
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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:34 am Post subject: Washington Times says Kerry has delivered 180 to Navy |
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050526-085733-4047r
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According to a Kerry spokesman, the form is currently in the hands of the Navy, where it will be processed before being passed to the National Personnel Records Center. Presumably, then, in the next couple months the public will have a better understanding of whether the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were a bunch of liars, as Mr. Kerry claims, or not.
[...]
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God Bless Our Veterans Of The USA! Thank you for your service!
If you can read, thank a teacher. If you can read in English, thank a Veteran! |
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wpage
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Wonder why the Navy has to have his Form 180 before the National Personnel Records Center? Think there is a mandated washing of records? |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: |
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I'm still wondering why the previous article said "his staff" were reviewing the records before he sent the Navy his 180?
Sure sounds like a set up to me.
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MarineBrat
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Right edge of the loony left coast.
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure whatever it is, there's bound to be an "odor" emanating from it. We'll have to see if he actually had the guts to release them "complete and unaltered, including military medical records," which is what the Swiftees asked in their letter to him dated May 4th, 2004. Just a little OVER A YEAR AGO!!!!
From: http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/article.php?story=20040629220813790
"Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records."
I'll believe it when I see it, and even then I'll need a good long look!
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God Bless Our Veterans Of The USA! Thank you for your service!
If you can read, thank a teacher. If you can read in English, thank a Veteran! |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MarineBrat wrote: |
"Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records."
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Thanks for refreshing my recall of that statement. It was reassuring to see the phrase "idependently release" incorporated. As Bandit so aptly put it, anything less than granting direct, independent access to that material is kerry smoke and mirrors...and I advised the Wash Times to that effect. |
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Tanya
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 570
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think we will be in for more flip-flopping. We will have more of his waffling explanations of what HIS FORM means: Something like this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886726/
"SEN. KERRY: We were right on the border, Tim. What I explained to people and I told this any number of times, did I go into Cambodia on a mission? Yes, I did go into Cambodia on a mission. Was it on that night? No, it was not on that night. But we were right on the Cambodian border that night. We were ambushed there, as a matter of fact. And that is a matter of record, and we went into the rec-- you know, it's part of the Navy records. It's been documented by the other guys who were on my boat. And Steve Gardner, frankly, doesn't know where we were. It wasn't his job, and, you know, he wasn't involved in that. But we did go five miles into Cambodia. It was on another day. I jumbled the two together, but we were five miles into Cambodia. We went up on a mission with CIA agents--I believe they were CIA agents--CIA Special Ops guys. I even have some photographs of it, and I can document it. And it has been documented.
So, he says, "What I explained to people and I told this any number of times, did I go into Cambodia on a mission? Yes, I did go into Cambodia on a mission. Was it on that night? No, it was not on that night. But we were right on the Cambodian border that night. We were ambushed there, as a matter of fact."
OK, in one paragraph he said he was NOT there on that night, BUT then he said, "But we were right on the Cambodian border THAT NIGHT." As always, listening to him makes one wonder, was he there THAT NIGHT or NOT? He says he was and was not there, all in one paragraph! 
MR. RUSSERT: You'll release those photographs?
SEN. KERRY: I think they were shown. I gave them to the campaign, but...
MR. RUSSERT: And you have a hat that the CIA agent gave you?
SEN. KERRY: I still have the hat that he gave me, and I hope the guy would come out of the woodwork and say, "I'm the guy who went up with John Kerry. We delivered weapons to the Khmer Rouge on the coastline of Cambodia." We went out of Ha Tien, which is right in Vietnam. We went north up into the border. And I have some photographs of that, and that's what we did. So, you know, the two were jumbled together, but we were on the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, absolutely.
The "guy" he got his "hat" from hasn't come out of the woodwork as of yet, but again he said he was on the, "Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, absolutely." But not on that night, right?
MR. RUSSERT: Nixon was president-elect, not president, at that particular time. He wasn't sworn in until...
SEN. KERRY: In 1968, he wasn't sworn in yet.
MR. RUSSERT: But he was president-elect, not president.
SEN. KERRY: That's correct.
MR. RUSSERT: Many people who've been criticizing you have said: Senator, if you would just do one thing and that is sign Form 180, which would allow historians and journalists complete access to all your military records. Thus far, you have gotten the records, released them through your campaign. They say you should not be the filter. Sign Form 180 and let the historians...
SEN. KERRY: I'd be happy to put the records out. We put all the records out that I had been sent by the military. Then at the last moment, they sent some more stuff, which had some things that weren't even relevant to the record. So when we get--I'm going to sit down with them and make sure that they are clear and I am clear as to what is in the record and what isn't in the record and we'll put it out. I have no problem with that.
What would NOT be relevant to the record? And again when he gets them he will make sure that they are clear and he's clear and then he'll put them out.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you sign Form 180?
SEN. KERRY: But everything, Tim...
MR. RUSSERT: Would you sign Form 180?
SEN. KERRY: Yes, I will. But everything that we put in it, Tim--everything we put in--I mean, everything that was out was a full documentation of all of the medical records, all of the fitness reports. And I'd call on those who have challenged me, let's see their records. I want to see the records of each of those people who have put up a challenge, because some of them have some serious questions in them, and it hasn't been appropriate...
Everything that THEY PUT in it was put out. So I don't think that they whomever "they" are, will put out ALL HIS RECORDS!
And whatever is put out will we have more of this to listen to: 
http://johnkerryads.websiteanimal.com/ |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of his signing 180, he will never, I repeat never, allow independent examination of his records.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Washington Times says Kerry has delivered 180 to Navy |
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MarineBrat QUOTED:
| Quote: | | According to a Kerry spokesman, the form is currently in the hands of the Navy, where it will be processed before being passed to the National Personnel Records Center. Presumably, then, in the next couple months the public will have a better understanding of whether the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were a bunch of liars, as Mr. Kerry claims, or not. |
MY GOD, SO THAT’S HOW HE’LL CONTINUE THE COVER-UP!
When dealing with evil (“People of the Lie”) you really, really have to be careful. We asked for the wrong thing – in the wrong way. By focusing on the process, and on its accompanying sound-byte-sized slogan (“the 180”), we shot ourselves in the foot. Our demand should have been for all of his military records, period. To do this, a signed SF 180 should have designated a PUBLIC INFORMATION SOURCE to receive and publish the records – like The Boston Globe, for example.
I have been saying and writing since the beginning of this that Kerry's records were not with the Navy, and his constant references to records the Navy released to him or to his campaign was a dodge. His military personnel records, the ones we are interested in, like mine and every other vets, are in the custody of the National Personnel Records Center, not the branch we serevd with on active duty.
This liar told everyone during the campaign that he had already released all of his records. When he admitted otherwise, no one held him to account for the lie. Now he’s going to do what we asked, and still keep the lie going.
No wonder it took him so long to act on this “promise.” It took some really smart, if sleazy, high paid lawyers some time and legal research to come up with this.
Here’s the deal:
There is absolutely NO LEGITIMATE OR REQUIRED REASON whatsoever for passing the SF 180 to, and its returned fruits through, the Navy. The Navy will still be constrained by Privacy Laws concerning any personnel records in its custody, regardless of how those records came to the Navy. When the Navy gets these records, Kerry’s lawyers will be all over them, and the Navy will be unable to release anything unless Kerry personally and in writing releases the Navy from their obligation under the Privacy Laws to protect his personnel records. Remember Secretary of the Navy William Middendorf (1974 - 1977) was unable to tell publicly what he knew about Kerry's not-honorable discharge because he faced criminal penalties under the Privacy Laws if he did so.
It is just a scam! And worse, now he will be able to claim that he met the demands of his detractors, and the records revealed nothing adverse!
If nothing else, the extremes he goes to in order to evade disclosure and to obfuscate these records can only lend extreme weight to suspicions that they contain devastating information.
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"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Washington Times says Kerry has delivered 180 to Navy |
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| d19thdoc wrote: | | And worse, now he will be able to claim that he met the demands of his detractors, and the records revealed nothing adverse! |
Doc...
While I agree that the demand of Kerry to simply "sign the 180" is just too nebulous, I don't think there's any doubt that those who are at least somewhat versed in the intent won't buy another repeat of Kerry's obfuscations (great word that).
Please remember that Russert was quite explicit when he mentioned that Kerry owed historians (and, I assume, journalists) access to this material "unfiltered" through Kerry or his campaign. That means, IMHO, direct access. They'll know a dodge when they see it.
Nor was the SwiftVet request vague in that regard...as we were reminded above. It is curious, though, that they referenced the Navy rather than the St. Louis records center. |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: Re: Washington Times says Kerry has delivered 180 to Navy |
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Me#1You#10 wrote:
| Quote: | | Please remember that Russert was quite explicit when he mentioned that Kerry owed historians (and, I assume, journalists) access to this material "unfiltered" through Kerry or his campaign. That means, IMHO, direct access. They'll know a dodge when they see it. |
Maybe I am just too familiar with evil-mindedness for reasons I'd rather not get into, but, we on the Internet were all over Kerry's lies for months, and it did not make the dent that was needed to unmask him.
What I see Kerry setting up here is Main Stream Media plausible deniability - you have to understand that he has to give his enablers in the MSM reasonable grounds on which to talk up his spin. The Navy, not John Kerry, will release the records. The Navy will be restrained by law from revealing what has not been authorized by him to be released, and it won't even be able to admit that restraint. Kerry is Alfred E. Neuman: "What, Me Worry?"
The Navy will get this stuff, Kerry's people will vet it, the Navy will only release what Kerry approves for release, and no one will be able to know it is incomplete, unless Kerry releases the Navy from the Privacy Laws. And he won't.
All he's done here is move the bean under another shell and so far no one but me, apparently, sees the sleight of hand trick.
So many posts on this thread smelled a rat, but weren't sure why or how, since Kerry seemed to be complying, and I wanted to make clear why they are right.
I'm not criticizing anyone here - God Bless SwiftVets and POWs. But at least as far as the media is concerned, Kerry is dancing as fast as he can and they are not about to catch up with him.
Which, again, proves to me that he really, really has something to hide.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:13 am Post subject: |
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I get your point Doc (I think). The fact that it is being channeled through the Navy suggests that the Navy is probably listed as the authorized recipient of whatever largesse Kerry has elected to provide. They are just as subject to Privacy Act restrictions as is the Nat'l Records Center. However, I don't "think" Kerry will be afforded the same latitude for evasion by elements of the MSM as he was provided pre-election and I'm unconvinced that they will buy this as compliance with the intent of the request.
Sure would like to get a look at that SF180 he submitted. I wonder if that might be a document that is subject to FOIA exposure?
On edit: One last thought...
| Quote: | | The Navy will be restrained by law from revealing what has not been authorized by him to be released, and it won't even be able to admit that restraint. |
This is reminiscent of the Washington Post (Michael Dobbs) initiative and, if memory serves me correctly, the Navy did indeed "admit that restraint"...no? But your point is well-taken that there is nothing short of unrelenting media pressure/political heat that will force him to reveal the content of any withheld documents. |
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ocsparky101
PO1
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 479
Location: Allen Park. Michigan
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| I am still of the thought though that it is not only his military records I want to see. Those records cover only the time while in the Navy. I want to see his FBI files. Now the Swift Vets may not have requested them but the Patrick Henry Center and Gary Aldrich have been since January 2004. |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ocsparky101 wrote: | | I am still of the thought though that it is not only his military records I want to see. Those records cover only the time while in the Navy. I want to see his FBI files. Now the Swift Vets may not have requested them but the Patrick Henry Center and Gary Aldrich have been since January 2004. |
WinterSoldier.com has all of the VVAW FBI files online at
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=VVAWFBI
I understand there are separate FBI files on Kerry alone, and that they are different from what I am linking here.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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