SwiftVets.com

[redhawk34]

This has been posted elsewhere, but I figure it belongs here. Some new commentary has surfaced about the SS action, but I am leaving it as I wrote it.
Welcome Home, all Vets!
Redhawk34

There are some aspects of John Kerry's service in Vietnam which, for me, do not add up. I have seen other articles raising the same questions, but I have been unable to track down the original authors. These observations are mine, and I was there.
I commanded an Army LCM-8 in the Infantry support role in Vietnam, 1968-69. At 73 feet, 65 tons light (120tons laden), I could easily have carried a "Swift" boat as cargo. This was a Sergeant's (E-5) command in the Army. We were tasked to carry infantry on many occasions, throughout the RungSat Special zone west toward the Parrot's Beak, from many units, both US and ARVN. Eventually my 34 boat and SGT Phil Layton's 17 boat were attached semi-permanently, for several months, to the 199th Light Infantry Bde, operating in the "Pineapple area" west of Saigon, up the Vam Co Dong, and to the west of it.
The "Swift" boats, unarmored and unable to carry many troops, were tasked with offshore interdiction and maintaining river superiority in the larger rivers. They did good work, and were frequently engaged, but they typically did not work close-in. The Navy PBR campaign in the smaller rivers and streams is well known, but they, too could not carry troops. That task was carried out by the converted LCM-6s of the MRF, and on a smaller scale, by our LCM-8s attached to the 199th LIB and other units. We lived with the Infantry, supported them, maneouvered them (I could carry a full company), and extracted them if they got into trouble. We would have known of any such widespread atrocities as alleged by Kerry, and in 15 months, I saw or heard of none. We knew our rules of engagement. I have personally received fire from a village and did not return it, as that was exactly what the NVA wanted us to do.
Some of my questions are as follows:
- Purple Hearts; Kerry was awarded three Purple Hearts, yet his records reportedly show no loss of duty time. I have a Purple Heart. I was hit in the posterior with a dime-sized piece of 82mm frag, which travelled 5 inches, and was surgically removed at Bn. Aid. I could walk without problems, and voluntarily returned to the boat in a few days, but the medical report called for two weeks limited duty. In the 199th LIB, you didn't get a PH for a minor piece of frag extracted by the squad medic and covered with a band-aid, or every man in the Brigade would have about six.
- Early Out; Kerry then invoked a Naval Reg allowing an early out for those three Purple Hearts. I wonder how he told his crew. "Hey, guys, I'm going home, enjoy your next eight months." Real morale builder. Real loyalty.
- Silver Star/Bronze Star; I worked with some very active, engaged units, and have never heard of so much hardware being collected so quickly, and for comparitively "everyday" actions. For example, notwithstanding my boat's NINE watertight compartments, the NVA sank me in the Song Ben Luc with two rounds of recoilless rifle fire in an ambush. SGT Phil Layton, behind me, immediately dropped his bow ramp and drove INTO A KNOWN AMBUSH to push my sinking boat out of the kill zone. He was not written up for any award for this action, it simply wasn't sufficiently out of the ordinary in that unit. I stand in awe of the doings of some of the men of the Brigade who never received an award of any kind. They figure the CIB covers it. I guess it does.
Additionally, in later years, Major General Frederic E. Davison told me that he became so frustrated when in command of the Brigade, upon sending up reccomendations for the Silver Star or higher, only to have them downgraded to ARCOM-V, that he began awarding the Bronze Star-V, which was his highest authorized direct award, even when he felt a higher award was warranted. (SGT Layton later received one such, for another action.)
- Kerry's SS Action; As I understand it, his boat was fired upon by a B-40 (Chinese copy of a Soviet RPG), and Kerry's Fifty Cal. gunner returned fire, hitting the NVA gunner, whereupon Kerry ran the boat on the beach, jumped off, chased and shot the Enemy with an M-16, and returned with the empty launcher. Had I ever made so many bonehead mistakes in an action, I would have had a VERY uncomfortable interview with the Battalion Commander, who would have busted me to WAC apprentice, for starters.
1 - Swift and PBR doctrine would have been to turn away from a B-40, as they had the speed to open the range rapidly. We would have turned toward it, as we were slower, and the ramp was the strongest part of the boat.
2 - In my experience, a person hit by a Fifty doesn't get up. (I had two) The "high powered" AK-47 threw a 125 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, the Fifty a 700 grain bullet at 2900 fps. Do the math. Kinetic energy equals one-half the mass times the square of the velocity.
3 - I have never heard of an NVA B-40 gunner carrying a secondary weapon, Once fired, he was unarmed. This implies that Kerry killed a wounded, unarmed enemy. First, if true, this was despicable. Second, it was stupid, as a live prisoner was a highly valued prize as an intel source.
4 - I would very possibly have been brought up on charges for leaving the boat in a firefight. The boat would be leaderless while I was absent, it could not return fire, as I would be out in front, and it could not withdraw. I would have grounded the boat only to insert Infantry, should that be decided as the best course. My boat was a force multiplier, and my job was to fight my boat, not run around on my own. I am privileged to know real heroes, many of whom hold no award, but a guy who wanted to be a hero used to scare hell out of me. Still does.
John Kerry is entitled to any views he wishes to hold about the war, if anti-war, so be it. On his return, he got involved with the VVAW (See Jug Burkett's "Stolen Valor" ISBN: 096670360X). In sworn testimony to Congress, he accused the US Military of a calculated campaign of torture, atrocity, rape, and murder. All of us.
How can he be so proud of his service, having committed atrocities?
- Oh, he didn't do it?
Then, if he saw them, did he report them, as is required of a Naval officer?
- Oh, he didn't see them?
Then how could he so testify, if all he had to go on was the Leftist Big Lies of the time?
If Bush's remarks about WMDs are lies, then John Kerry's testimony certainly were lies of a much higher order. By those lies, he broke faith with me, and with all those he accused. He was disloyal to me and to us, and such disloyalty is about as low as one can go.
Redhawk34

[colmurph]

Great post. I had occaision to ride up the coast of I Corps on a Mike-8 boat from Sa-huyn (sp?) LZ Charlie Brown to the coast opposite the Pinksville Area (My-Lai) in 1968 when I commanded a Rifle Company. A miserable ride in bad weather to be put ashore around 3 am in a downpour. The folks running the boat put us within 100 meters of our intended landing site.

[redhawk34]

Colonel, you have my deep sympathy, a Mikeboat offshore is not a comfortable ride. Most boats are sharp in front, to cut through the waves, a Mikeboat's flat bow ramp just beats them over their pointed li'l heads and hopes they go away. If those boats were Army, they might have been 1097th Med Boat Co. Their CO, 1LT Gus Pagonis was later the 3 star Log commander for the Gulf War. His book, "Moving Mountains" is excellent.
We had a huge tactical advantage in the canal and river laced areas west and south of Saigon. To move a Company by chopper would take what, 25 birds including escort? You woul need an LZ, have to do it in daylight, and everyone in 10 klicks would know where you were.
I could carry a Company (a little crowded), put them in at night exactly where they wanted to go, and they did not need to assemble. We were so quiet throttled back, that we were inaudible over 100 meters. Mr. Charles couldn't watch every 100 meters of riverbank, and we surprised hell out of him many times. We were able to get him reacting to us instead of the other way around.
It was a good mission, working with superb people.
Redhawk

[DougReese]

"2 - In my experience, a person hit by a Fifty doesn't get up. (I had two) The "high powered" AK-47 threw a 125 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, the Fifty a 700 grain bullet at 2900 fps. Do the math. Kinetic energy equals one-half the mass times the square of the velocity."

Let me keep this short, largely because this is my first post/reply, and I'm not so sure how this works!

The VC with the B-40 wasn't hit by the .50 cal. I think I know how that story got started, but that's a long story in and of itself.

The .50 cal gunner has said he didn't (couldn't, actually) hit that VC, and all those present that day have said he didn't hit that VC. The M-60 gunner hit him once in the leg before his gun jammed. The VC then ran some distance behind some trees/brush, towards a lean-to.

I might add that that VC was the only VC on the scene. There were a number of others.

Doug

[redhawk34]

I stand corrected;
It seems that the VC was hit in the leg with 7.62 and ran a short distance before he was killed, presumably unarmed, by Kerry, who had no business being off the boat in the first place.
I understand there were probably other VC in the area.
Charlie always supported the B-40 man with a rifleman or two, these seem to have been singularly inept in this case in not having Kerry for lunch.
With Kerry out in front, his boat gunners could not engage these "other VC" for fear of hitting him, and because, with the bow up on the beach, the fifties possibly could not depress enough.
This was perhaps a brave action, but dumber than a box of rocks.
An officer actually thinking about the mission, instead of his own personal agrandizement, upon receiving B-40 fire, would turn away to open the range, then pour several hundred rounds of 50 and 7.62 into the area, while getting on that greatest of all weapons, the radio, and calling for Arty, Air, or even Infantry. They had a good chance of getting them all.
Kerry got ONE. And a medal.
I've seen a "Glory Hound" or two, usually junior Lieutenants. They were regarded with some contempt in the Brigade. You see, it was about the mission, about each other, and about the Brigade.
It wasn't about me.
Kerry's brief war seems to have been all about Kerry; "how can I get the maximum personal advantage out of this, then di di mau as fast as possible?"
Redhawk

[DougReese]

[DougReese]

[quote="DougReese"]"
I might add that that VC was the only VC on the scene. There were a number of others."

Doug

Let me restate that.

I might add that the VC was NOT the only VC on the scene. There were a number of others.

Doug

[waltjones]

Doug: Were you there? You sound as if you were, you're so sure of the exact details. If so - and only if you really know the answer - why did Kerry shoot an unarmed wounded man? Is that why he said he committed "war crimes"? Why exactly do you say there would have been "hell to pay" if Kerry hadn't pursued the VC? Wasn't it a bad idea to beach his boat in the 1st place? I agree with redhawk, who has much more applicable experience than I do: it just doesn't add up.

As a side note, you should know that these kinds of things are simply Vietnam vets questioning his actions, and really has nothing to do with why we are angry at him. When I say "we", I do believe that the vast majority of Vietnam vets who are aware of his VVAW activities and despicable Senate testimony fall into that group. BTW, have you seen the "Calling All Marines" topic (further down)? Perhaps you can explain to me how you can support a man who made a mockery of the Iwo Jima memorial? He might as well have raped my wife and killed my dog is how I feel. If that sort of thing doesn't matter to you (i.e. honor and sacrifice), go ahead and vote for the slimeball; none of us will. Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[DougReese]

[redhawk34]

Doug, if you were there, you were a lot closer to this action than I was. You might write a quick description of the action through your eyes. The more views the better, as it's my experience that different participants remember an event very differently. I'm constantly asked to fill in details at reunions, simply because I had a radio and a map.
Our memories are a mixture of observation and subsequent discussion. At 80 meters, you would be able to see what Kerry's boat did, but not what he did. Still, you should have a pretty good "feel" for the action.
In any case, you have certainly, and honorably earned the right to your views. I want to hear them. You might change mine, or at least I might entertain your views without accepting the same conclusions.
I regard Kerry in VN as a "Glory Hound", which may or may not be true, but this is simply a matter of personal distaste. My utter anger and contempt for the man devolves from his subsequent activities, particularly his congressional testimony.
Had Kerry served his full tour, I would honor him, though probably not vote for him. I would shrug off the medals, officers and the Navy in general always did pretty well in that regard.
For me the issue is loyalty. In my unit, an officer who took advantage of what would definitely be seen as a "loophole" to leave after only four months would have been viewed with utter contempt by his subordinates and brother officers, who, like you, would serve their full tour.
Our primary loyalty was to each other. Many extended their tours, knowing they were needed. I did 15 months.
I simpy cannot reconcile this with any known concept of leadership, unit cohesion, or personal loyalty, upward and downward.
Welcome home.
Redhawk

[waltjones]

Doug:
First I want to thank you very much for answering my questions. I wasn't being sarcastic- I really wondered if you were present at that action. Now that I know you were, I'll ask no further questions about it.
Regarding your statement below about the cover photo of The New Soldier, is it possible that Kerry will apologize? Of course, if he apologizes now, everybody will see it and people will wonder why he waited so long; kind of a quandary for him, no? Can you tell us the background you speak of? No matter what the background, his name right above the photo is rather hard to explain. You should understand that every Marine who sees that picture won't be voting for Kerry, judging from their reactions so far. Very few have seen the photo, and every vet I've shown it to has a negative reaction. You should know - if you haven't read my essay - that my goal is for every Marine - dormant or active - to see this photo before the election; that includes Zell Miller. I hate Kerry for other things he did too, but a picture's worth a thousand words! Thanks for the info and Semper Fi!



It does matter. I've seen the background as to how that photo came about.

Doug
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[jalexson]

[DougReese]

[carpro]

Doug,

We have been told by an authority on Kerry who writes under the name"Sparky" in the open forum that Kerry shot that wounded VC with a 50 Cal. M-16. He refuses to divulge where Kerry got such a weapon but insists that's what happened.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

[The bandit]