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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:20 am Post subject: contradictory statements |
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Respectfully, I am skeptical about aspects of the swiftee allegations and wish to pose several questions having to do with contradictory statements as reported by the news media.
1. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is said to have reported the following:
| Quote: | | Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally. |
Is this true? What changed Adm Hoffman's mind? When?
2. LCDR George M. Elliott wrote the following about Kerry in 1969, emphasis added:
| Quote: | In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program. |
This is a glowing assesment. When did LCDR Elliott change his view of Kerry? Why? If he knew Kerry was scamming his medals, and failed to report it, was that an infraction?
3. Lt. Larry Thurlow claims that Kerry's medal is undeserved because there was no enemy fire. Yet the press reports that Thurlow earned a medal for his actions in the same skirmish.
| Quote: | | In the ads and at news conferences, former Lt. Larry Thurlow, a Swift boat commander, said Kerry also didn't rate the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart for action at which he was present on March 13, 1969. Thurlow said the patrol never came under enemy fire, though he was awarded the Bronze Star for valor in the same incident. |
Is this true?
4. Adrian Lonsdale said that Kerry is...
| Quote: | | ...among the finest of those swift boat drivers |
When did he change his view of Kerry? Why?
5. Charles Plumly said that Kerry...
| Quote: | | required a lot of supervision ... did things without permission |
Yet when pressed for specifics, replied:
| Quote: | | I can't give you exact specifics. |
When charges this fantastic are made, shouldn't Mr. Plumly have arrayed some specifics?
Given that we are in election season, and given that there is big GOP money behind the swiftees, how are we the public supposed to reconcile these contradictions?
Thank you in advance for any light that can be shed.
(Will gladly provide links. I assume the swiftees are familiar with these reports.) |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Firstly, whether it's an election year or not should have no bearing on whether contradictions need to be resolved; they do, and they will. Secondly, I'm a - previously, anyway - non-political Vietnam Vet who wants to see the destruction of John Kerry's career, but if I can't get that, I sure as hell don't want him in charge of my Marine Corps. For that reason, I too decided to help these guys. They are getting a lot of small donations from vets. There has been one large donation of (I think) $100,000; is that what you meant by "big GOP money"? How does that compare to the many millions of dollars put into moveon.org by George Soros? Is there something improper about that, or do you just dislike Republicans?
varwoche, I'm sure that all of your questions will be answered, but if you're a veteran you know about fitness reports. Keep in mind that Kerry's promotion rate wasn't exactly meteoric, but I'll leave all that to the experts to explain. Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| waltjones wrote: | Firstly, whether it's an election year or not should have no bearing on whether contradictions need to be resolved; they do, and they will. Secondly, I'm a - previously, anyway - non-political Vietnam Vet who wants to see the destruction of John Kerry's career, but if I can't get that, I sure as hell don't want him in charge of my Marine Corps. For that reason, I too decided to help these guys. They are getting a lot of small donations from vets. There has been one large donation of (I think) $100,000; is that what you meant by "big GOP money"? How does that compare to the many millions of dollars put into moveon.org by George Soros? Is there something improper about that, or do you just dislike Republicans?
varwoche, I'm sure that all of your questions will be answered, but if you're a veteran you know about fitness reports. Keep in mind that Kerry's promotion rate wasn't exactly meteoric, but I'll leave all that to the experts to explain. Semper Fi! |
Walt, your reply cuts straight to my skepticism about the swiftees.
You want to see the destruction of John Kerry's career. Presumably the swiftees want to see same.
To what extent is distaste for John Kerry, due to his prominent positions as an anti-war protestor, driving this? Are the allegations that he gamed his medals fair? (Doesn't seem so from here.) |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| varwoche wrote: |
You want to see the destruction of John Kerry's career. Presumably the swiftees want to see same. |
You presume incorrectly. If the Swifts had wanted to destroy Kerry's career, they could have done so a long time ago.
It is only now, when he gained credibility as candidate for Commander in Chief that the Swifts have disrupted their lives and come back to answer another kind of call to duty.
The danger is real.
Whether you choose to accept that or not is up to you and you must vote your conscience. As a veteran, I cannot even imagine Kerry as CinC without anxiety. My son is in the service and I do not want him to experience a Jimmy-Carter-brand of military.
No funds for training flights, runways in disrepair, half the a/c in a squadron cannibalized for parts we couldn't afford, substandard barracks and housing, a TACAN that went out twice a day despite the valiant efforts of our Ground Electronics Department, WWII teletype machines and inter-facility communications systems. It was insane.
| Quote: |
To what extent is distaste for John Kerry, due to his prominent positions as an anti-war protestor, driving this? Are the allegations that he gamed his medals fair? (Doesn't seem so from here.) |
"Gamed" his medals? I think you'll soon see that he played the system for a fool for two of his purple hearts and one of his stars. 
Distaste? No distaste... disgust. He spat on his generation of soldiers.
Please read more on this board and feel free to ask questions. You will have answers in spades, I guarantee.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have another example of a swiftee who apparently has no first hand knowledge about Kerry's service in Vietnam. He presumably has signed on with the swiftees because of his disdain for Kerry's anti-war position.
| Quote: | | Though O'Mara didn't know Kerry in Vietnam, serving on a different boat crew, he is one of the sources quoted in a forthcoming book, "Unfit for Command," written by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth spokesman John O'Neill, who took over Kerry's swift boat command. |
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/local/9356417.htm
Leading to this question: How many of 250 swiftees were not on Kerry's boat, nor on the missions in which Kerry earned his medals. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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And what is it that Mara is going to write about in the book. You left that part out. He could be making a claim as to general weather conditions that time of year.
There are 60 people who signed sworn affidavits and told personal observations in this book about what they had SEEN of John Kerry in Vietnam.
The 254 Swifts who founded SBVFT do not all personally know Kerry. But they served in the same area, the same boats, in roughly the same time frame.
There are thousands more of us vets who were never near their area or even era or branch, but we support them in what they do.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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varwoche: You need to answer my questions, just as I attempted to answer yours. You are not responding to posts, just cherry-picking. We don't much like that here, so get your act together and debate properly. Thatisall ....
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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For those who don't get this, ther are many Swiftees who, although not there with Kerry, are angry about his falsely accusing them of war crimes. varwoche, you're one of those people. When the book comes out, you'll understand. If you're impatient, read some of the many Swift Boat vets statements in this forum, and maybe you'll figure out what's about to hit Kerry. It's going to be ugly; if the Dems had any brains at all, they would have nominated somebody - anybody, even Howard Dean - else. Kerry's going to get steamrollered. Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Pardon me Walt, I thought your questions were rhetorical.
| Quote: | | There has been one large donation of (I think) $100,000; is that what you meant by "big GOP money"? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | How does that compare to the many millions of dollars put into moveon.org by George Soros? |
It's a lot less.
| Quote: | | Is there something improper about that, or do you just dislike Republicans? |
Have you stopped beating your wife?
It's not improper. It's a data point. |
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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| waltjones wrote: | | For those who don't get this, ther are many Swiftees who, although not there with Kerry, are angry about his falsely accusing them of war crimes. varwoche, you're one of those people. |
This is precisely what I do get, and again cuts directly to my problem with the swiftee allegations.
I understand that many veterans have a visceral hatred for Kerry due to the things that he said. I may disagree on certain points, but I have no problem with vets expressing this sentiment.
I have a big problem, however, when Kerry's service record is attacked by people who have no first hand knowledge of his service, and by people who only had postive things to say about Kerry up until the time he was nominated. Is that understandable? |
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4moreyears
Former Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Clinton had somewhat of a honeymoon. Even a honeymoon in the Oval office with Monnnicaaa!
No such luxury for JFK.
I believe that Kerry is major damaged goods. His spinmeisters are rubbing salt in the swiftie's wounds, this will not go away...Kerry will be hounded, and rightously so IMHO!
Vote "W" for honor, integrity and dignity.
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 kerry returned to the United States on July 22, 1971, held a press conference publicly calling on President Nixon... for the surrender of the United States to North Vietnam. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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$100,000 donated by one supporter (who we do not even know for SURE is a Republican) does not equate to "big GOP money."
Varwouche - I deleted your last post. One and only warning.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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4moreyears
Former Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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The $100,000...a drop in the bucket for a troll democrat who wishes to attempt to discredit this organization..
Or a true well wisher putting their money where their mouth is or isn't.
I.O.U. If I win the lotto I'll do $100,000.
And no...I'm not referring to the candy bar.
_________________
kerry returned to the United States on July 22, 1971, held a press conference publicly calling on President Nixon... for the surrender of the United States to North Vietnam. |
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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | Varwouche - I deleted your last post. One and only warning. |
Huh? Which post? Did I violate a rule? |
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varwoche
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | You will have answers in spades, I guarantee. |
Excellent, thank you.
Now if I only knew what rule I violated, and what I wrote in violation, so that I'm not banned before these guaranteed answers arrive. |
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