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NavyChief · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject:

[quote="Herb"]

NavyChief · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject:

Hammer2 · PO2 Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 387 Location: Texas

Chief, also the steel casing of the 40mm grenade is made with a spiral wound steel wire that is notched at regular intervals. The purpose is to evenly disperse the maximum amount of equally sized fragments on detonation - this is how Letson was able to ID the fragment in his first PH incident.

This design evolved after the WWII MkII HE grenade (the classic pineapple grenade) was found to have an unpredictable dispersal pattern of fragments(ie - not everyone in the kill radius gets hit by fragments). The notched wire design is also used in the M61 and current M67 "baseball" hand grenades.

Link to photos:
http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/

The B-40 rocket lacks this feature. The HEAT version is not designed to produce anti-personnel fragments. The HEAP uses a notched steel casing to produce fragments. In either case the fragments are easily distingushed from US M-79 grenade fragments.
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson

Hammer2 · PO2 Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 387 Location: Texas

Just a thought Chief - do the x-rays of Kerry's injuries still exist? Would they be in his unreleased medical records? If so, they should clearly show the size and shape of the fragments.
What about Thorsen and Short? Any info or x-rays on their injuries? A single M-79 grenade fragmet in any of them would put the lie to this story.
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson

Herb · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:33 pm Post subject:

Anyone here every personally see an RPG hit the water or a motar do so?

What sort of scrapnel do you get? (You do get an explosion, right?)

I still don't see how you have an RPG hit in the water and through stuff into the boat (over the gunwale but down into someone's leg.)
_________________
Herb

Hammer2 · PO2 Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 387 Location: Texas

Herb, it depends on the type of round.

Anti-Armour rounds employ a conical shaped charge behind a copper cone. The fuze is a PIBD type (Point Initiating, Base Detonating). Essentialy, it is an explosive lense that focuses the power of the charge to collapse the copper cone and form a jet that burns through the armour. The PI part of the fuze is located at the focus point of the explosive lense. The net effect is that when a round of this type explodes, the bulk of the force and particles is projected forward - this makes it fairly ineffective as an anti-personnel round.

Anti-personnel rounds depend on a spherical or cylindrical spray of fragments to inflict injury. They contain an explosive charge and either a fragmenting case, or a case filled with steel balls. The fuzes are PD (Point Detonating) and either explode on impact, or cause a small charge to lift the grenade man-high before exploding. Both the current US and East Block grenades have both types. I don't believe the air-bursting types were available in 1969 on either side.

There are also thermobaric rounds now, but they create an area blast and heat effect that causes the injuries (think fuel-air bombs). These didn't exist at the time.

My point in all this is that no B-40 or M-79 round could have caused Kerry's injury if used properly. Only an air-burst could have caused the downward angled wounds, eliminating the B-40 and thus indicating a premature M-79 round detonating as soon as it armed itself.
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson

NavyChief · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:37 pm Post subject:

NavyChief · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:39 pm Post subject:

hanna · Rear Admiral Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 701

The shrapnel wound that Kerry claimed "burned like hell", was the first purple heart incident. UFC page 33.

Also I read where someone said that when Kerry goes through the metal detector at the airport he does not set off the alarm. Is shrapnel always metal or can it be plastic or something?

ASPB · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject:

hanna · Rear Admiral Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 701

ewwwwwwwwwww:(( Does it hurt?? And can't those move around? YUCK........made my stomach flip flop........eeeeeeeekkkkkkkk its a KERRY:) I have a Kerry stomach:)

Hammer2 · PO2 Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 387 Location: Texas

Here is a good Military reference for combat injuries. Text and drawings, no photos. Not gross.

http://www.vnh.org/EWSurg/EWSTOC.html
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson

Hammer2 · PO2 Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 387 Location: Texas

For ASPB

NavyChief · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject:

Great discussion.

I want to point out that the medical report seen by Kerry's doctor and the letter he wrote says the wound was from a B-40 rocket. But if you read closely, the medical report does not say B-40 rocket. Also, how could they tell what kind of shrapnel this was? If they had to leave it in there and take an xray to confirm its location, there's no way they could have determined what it was that hit Kerry in the leg.

They took Kerry's word for it that it was a B-40 rocket.

This is lovely because on the CUA LON river, it was at least 1000 meters wide at the point Kerry was "ambushed". Naval Intelligence reported in late January, earlier February that the maximum range for a B-40 rocket was 200 meters. You do the math Cool

Can shrapnel go out approximately 300 meters? And this was provided that Kerry's boat was standing still at the time -- not moving away at a farther distance.

- Chief

docford · Lt.Jg. Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 149

Chief,

It is very unlikely that the actual x-rays are still in existence, and the films are not part of the "medical record." Only the xray report written by the radiologist or other physician is retained in the individual's medical record. The films are retained where the xrays were shot. Old films are normally destroyed or recycled after a certain period.

Depending on the angle of the xray and the quality of the shot, it is sometimes possible to get a pretty good idea of the appearance, size and shape of the shrapnel. If that is the case, the xray report in the medical record might state that the object was flat, spiral, notched, etc.
_________________
Doc Ford
HMC (SW) USN