SwiftVets.com

[Dwight Callaway]

TRANSCRIPT BELOW --Tony Snow - Talk Radio Show with John Hurley of "Vietnam Vets for Kerry" 8-11

If you read this before some debunking has been spliced in since first posting, thanks to Bob Shirley. That info plus some things that I caught are in bold.

I have also added some actual new material to the "transcript" that was on the tape but I was too burned out to type. It is still not a 100% transcript but the important stuff is here.

The "Vietnam Veterans For Kerry" appears to be only a shell or fake organization. A creation of the Kerry campaign, so they can put guys like Hurley in front of the media. I googled them today and found no site and few hits. Nothing substantial. Tony Snow did not ask him how many members he had or anything. It sounded like Tony was friendly with him. Too friendly.

Anything in italics is something that is being commented on as being a lie, or sophistry. Read those closely and see what you think.

The Kerry Campaign has decided not to commit suicide by admitting Kerry lied about going to Cambodia. So they have changed their story from a day or two ago. This interview covers other topics besides Cambodia, but it is the main subject.

This is a fairly accurate and semi-complete transcript of the interview by Tony Snow. He's the guy who used to host Fox News Sunday. Interview was Wednesday evening. I transcribed it. The main speaker is Hurley.. I identify Tony Snow whenever he gets a word in edgewise. Snow was too much like a big friendly puppy. Hurley won hands down. We better toughen up! We better go to school and practice. This is the second Kerry apologist I have heard on radio and they were both devastating. At times a Lawyer-like machine-gun mouth, causing overwhelm and confusion. Leaving the average person convinced the Swift vets have nothing. Now this may be nonsense to some of you who "were there" but you need to put yourself in the shoes of soccer moms and joe average.

Now anybody who knows any of this stuff is lies, and KNOWS the facts, let's hear them.

As previously suggested in the post called "Answering Democrat Attacks" now on the Resources Forum, listening to these Kerry attack dogs and then coming up with good answers for what they say is what we must do in order to defeat and silence them. We need to stop them from tricking people. Hope that other people will do this...?

It is even more devastating to listen to than to read. He was good with his timing and voice control. USE ALL CAPS TO INDICATE SOME OF THAT.

STARTED WITH A QUESTION ABOUT JOHN KERRY'S RECORDS

HURLEY All of John Kerry’s military records that the US Navy provided to him are on our website. It’s been there for months. They are up on the internet at our website

I think this is a subtle lie. WEASEL WORDS!! Parse this carefully --Does the navy still have more records because Kerry doesn't want them?

Bronze and Silver star citations and 3 purple heart citations are there

There are some medical records. Some stuff of a personnal nature has been held back

A purple heart “happens because of the medical treatment” A purple heart is the only decoration that does not require a recommendation. You always hear CDR Hibbert say he didn’t recmd/approve Kerry for his purple heart. (so what) If you are injured in combat, you are entitled to a purple heart.

You don’t have to put in for it and no one does put in for it. It is the result of that medical report that is made…

There is a very good listing of what records are actually on Kerry's website. See URL and title immediately below. On the main board.

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2394
"Kerry’s records" by milspec

Also see a separate thread covering a transcript of Gardner on the Savage show- saying Kerry's PHeart(s) lacked two types of required paperwork.

CAMBODIA 1968

HURLEY What happened was on Christmas eve 1968 and I’ve seen the reports from the Swift Boat veterans for Bush that say he couldn’ t have been in Cambodia because he was in SA DEC 50 or 60 miles away THEY’RE WRONG

He WAS in SA DEC? On Christmas eve day of 1968. Later that day he was up near the Cambodian border where they were ambushed.
He joined with 2 other PBRs. He was in a swift boat PCF – 44. They joined with two other PBRs and they were sitting in the middle of the river when mortar rds. Started to come in. They returned fire. An old man ended up being killed And that fire fight ended

A short time thereafter that was the second engagement in which they took about 20 sniper rds from the opposite bank. Up in that part of this river, it is very “watery” it is the middle of the night. There’s no signs that say welcome to Cambodia It’s a combat situation It’s entirely possible that they were in… Cambodia that night. It’s entire ly possible that they were not. They WERE on the Cambodian border, as I say, in a very watery unmarked area -- middle of the night engaged in two hostile actions and actually a 3rd engagement that was not hostile but friendly fire from someone celebrating Christmas, but there was two hostile engagements that night one the Cambodian border

AND THIS LEADS TO THE BIGGER POINT TONY because WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS THAT GUYS WHO DID NOT SERVE with John Kerry are making statements about John Kerry’s service It is the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush who are saying “he couldn’t possibly have been in Cambodia because he was in SA DEC. They don’t know what they are talking about because the guys on that boat realized they were in SA DEC. But Later the same day they traveled up near the Cambodian border

OKAY this is subtle but this is what's known as a subconscious admission of a lie. It is a "tell". Notice how he says they "realized" they were in SA DEC. Sailors do not "realize" they are someplace so they must go somewhere else. I think what he is actually saying is "the Kerry campaign last night realized that IF we are "in Sa Dec" Christmas 68, Kerry is finished - we are dead, we have got to "go back to Cambodia" and hang tough. That's our story and we gotta stick with it.



TONY SNOW :Bu bu bu 3 of the 5 people there on the boat said they did not go there that they in fact were off on on ….

Hurley: No they said they did not know and I think that’s the right answer pure spin
TONY SNOW: They don’t know where they are in a boat….

Hurley: It’s the middle of the night Tony -- engaged in TWO firefights. They are being mortared -there were two other boats -it’s the middle of the night- it’s dark -they’re under fire Uhhh -it it’s very watery -it’s black uhhh- it it’s completely understandable They know they’re on the Cambodian border, whether or not they drifted across to the other side of that border they don’t know in a rapid fire deliver designed to overwhelm and confuse

Commanders at the time verify that Swift patrol areas "ended" at Sa Dec Kerry is now on PBRs? 55 miles outside the authorized patrol area?? Three crewmembers {Zaldonis, Hatch, Gardner} say they were never near Cambodia. Not then or at any time what-so-ever. Case closed. from Bob Shirley --- Hurley actually said he was with two PBRs but Kerry was on swift 44


Quote below is from Bob Shirley – copied from another thread discussing Swift radar and Nav capability
“The two main factors to consider in the outrageous Christmas fairy tale are:
----- 55 miles away from the border on a broad River
----- The excellent discrimination of the radar on short ranges.
Even if kerry disregarded the restriction to stay below Sa Dec and spent
several hours headed up river at night. All the fish traps, barriers and large
vessels at the border would have been easily detected on the short range
scale of the radar.
As ASPB notes, the notion of using a Swift for covert SEAL operations into
"forbidden" Cambodia is patently absurd. About the only thing louder on
the river than a Swift Boat was the air cusion PACV. Not exactly stealthy.
Whether Christmas or January. kerry was still on PCF-44 outta CosDiv 13
Which operated inland from Cat Lo up to ONLY Sa Dec on the Mekong River
Zaladonis, Hatch and Gardner all agree that the 44 NEVER went to Cambodia”

TONY SNOW: okay apparently, look I wasn’t there , you weren’t there I don’t think
Hurley: I was in Vietnam but I did not serve with John Kerry at all

TONY SNOW yeah apparently there was a big sign that says …. There were very strict rules you don’t go into Cambodia

What about the earlier notion that he had dropped off CIA agents?

Synopsis --- not exact

Hurley okay a couple of missions on other occasions John Kerry did have missions that took him 5 miles deep into Cambodia ---- those happened

TONY SNOW: there are after action reports and all that cause I'm lookin on the web going to check on that

Tony Snow What happened today is in an attempt to defend Sen. Kerry, one of the guys associated with Kerry said no, no, no faulty memory, he wasn't in Cambodia then on Christmas. My question is ... you would know if it was Christmas, I mean lots of other days you would forget

HURLEY:I think that what happens here is that two stories are getting confused There was this Christmas eve incident in which they were mortared and ambushed up near the Cambodian border there’s a second incident in which they were 5 miles deep into Cambodian territory dropping off a Seal Team or a special forces team And what is happening is that those two stories are becoming confused
now Hurley is saying there was a "second" (only one other) incident in Cambodia not other or multiple incidents

But I also think its important to point out that some of these accusations are coming from people who in the words of John McCain are dishonest and dishonorable They’re now 35 years after the fact trying to recreate history John Kerry served with courage and honor and distinction in Vietnam and for these guys who did not serve with him and I’m including John O’neill who NEVER LAID EYES on John Kerry in Vietnam and is now coming back and trying to portray himself as the expert on John Kerry in Vietnam

TS wait bu, bu bu
It’s dishonest and disingenuous

Snow makes some good points and Hurley does not argue and then..

HURLEY You cannot explain the inconsistensies between what they said in 1969 and what they say now discussion of Elliots fitrep of Kerry unsurpassed and acknowledged leader of his peer group Now Elliot says unfit..

Hurley attacks Elliot about the Boston Globe article

O’neill never saw John Kerry for one minute in Vietnam -----now he’s the resident expert----- He’s a Nixon era dirty trickster from the White House
and neither did you hypocrite

TS c’mon you’re smearing the guy

He’s smearing John Kerry --John Kerry is my friend Oneill has never once laid eyes on John Kerry in Vietnam this co-author of his is a hate monger how can they have credibility

Tony says he is going through affidavits and asks for sources phone numbers so he can check them out

TONY SNOW plays tape of Kerry excusing his atrocity claims as “youthful things”

Tony snow: Kerry did say atrocities were official policy

Hurley: Kerry never said it was official policy

Kerry 1971 testimony before the Senate wrote:
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. from Bob Shirley


Discussion of Toledo Blade reporters who won a Pulitzer prize for story of Vietnam atrocities My Lai testimony

Hurley -Tommy Franks said John Kerry is right (about atrocities in Viet Nam

TS brings up Winter soldier frauds and Al Hubbard

Hurley:Al Hubbard exaggerated his service yes but Al Hubbard was not one of the principal players of the Winter soldier hearings

John Kerry did not damn everyone who served in Vietnam or say that everyone who served committed atrocities.

I served in Vietnam I felt no sense of betrayal whatsoever from John Kerry because you were working for Uncle Ho too? Because you are perverse also?

Snow again asks him for info on atrocities

Hurley -The Toledo Blade has won a Pulitzer Prize this year for working on atrocities in Vietnam

Keep two things in mind who’s making the statement and when are they making the statement

TS John I know the rap, but I want to thank you.

Much rather have John on that Lanny Davis

END
_________________
We have the Government and the Institutions that we deserve. If you want better government then YOU want to be a better citizen.

[Me#1You#10]

Great job on the transcription Dwight...that's REAL dedication. Heading for the rack now...hope it's fully debunked by tomorrow

[rbshirley]

[Dwight Callaway]

Bob Shirley wrote:"With all due respect Dwight. This is nothing but yadda-yadda-yadda Inuendos, uprovable assertions, & personal smears on the book authors. Right up there with Lanny Davis' screams on Hannity and Scarborough.

It is yadda-yadda to guys who know the facts inside out and upside down. But to soccer moms and even me a Navy vet, this machine gun mouth talking points a__hole is very effective. You guys who know the truth can help devise our own talking points to smash these guys. It's all old news to a few but there are many coming on board now and they need educating. Thank you very much for your info.

Bob said --"Weak talk show hosts let these clowns get away with outrageous behavior."

PRECISELY!!!! So what can Swift vets do to educate and toughen these guys up. I think we need to say to them, look, stop having the Kerry people on alone because they eat your lunch. Have one of our guys on to DEBATE Lanny Davis or Hurley and you can sit back and watch.

When I said Swiftvets need to toughen up, I did not cast any dispersions on O'neill or anybody - O'neill is devastating and totally credible. We have to destroy these talking points and teach the Snows and Hannities how to handle Lanny Davis. Now some may say that's not our job, we just keep doing our thing and we win. Maybe they are right. I hope so! I hope we have already won. But there are millions of people out there who are looking for a reason to blow off the swiftvets. Hurley gives them an excuse, even if all the does is confuse them and convince them the truth can never be known.


Bob Shirley wrote:"Excuse ME! Just which Swift Boat did you serve on with Ltjg John Kerry?
(In response to O'neill not serving with Kerry)WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS THAT GUYS WHO DID NOT SERVE with Kerry ...."

Exactly. I caught that hypocrisy in Hurley but Snow was flummoxed and never called him on it. The audience mostly missed it, I'm sure.

Bob Shirley wrote:PS: The innuendo about the SEAL team operation isn't worthy of comment "

Why not? I don't know why and 99% of the audience doesn't know why. Hurley said it totally matter of factly with absolute confidence. If this is a big lie, we can nail it. What are the facts about Kerry taking Seals/special forces into Cambodia?

See new info on sneaking into Cambodia spliced into main post above -- in bold

Anybody else with concrete rebuttals of Hurley post them and will try to get them in too.
_________________
We have the Government and the Institutions that we deserve. If you want better government then YOU want to be a better citizen.

[Mark]

Anybody know Hurley's Vietnam credentials?
_________________
Retired USN Capt.; Market Time vicinity ChuLai 6/67-2/68; Maddox 8/64 Tonkin Gulf; NGFS I Corps 6-12/65; Saigon evac. 4/75.

[fucla]

[Me#1You#10]

[lrb111]

It was seared...seared into Kerrys memory that he was IN Cambodia on Christmas. And Hurley states emphatically the Kerry detractors have it wrong.

Now, Kerry comes out and states it was in January. Doesnt that make Hurley look like an f'ing idiot?>>>>>

First rule of lawyering, first time your client proves you are a liar,
Bail Out!
_________________
said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast.

[Dwight Callaway]

[fucla]

Dwight,

I was being a little sarcastic when I made my original post in this thread.

Just for fun, let me see if I have the chronology right.

First version:

Kerry states he was in Cambodia on Christmas. He states this on the government record at least once in each sucessive decade following the war.


Second version:

Kerry states he was near Cambodia on Christmas

Third Version:

From Tour of Duty, Kerry states that he took mortar fire in Sa Dec on Christmas eve and wrote in his journal on Christmas day.

Fourth version:

Kerry states he was in Cambodia in January






I am sure I missed a couple of other versions along the way. So...did the mortar attack on Sa Dec really happened?

Hurley states:

"He WAS in SA DEC? On Christmas eve day of 1968. Later that day he was up near the Cambodian border where they were ambushed. "

Which is really rather ingenius, as it serves as an amalgamation of several different stories. Now, Kerry wasnt clearly IN Cambodia...he was simply NEAR Cambodia. Oh, and there isnt a contradiction at all present because Kerry was also in Sa Dec taking mortar fire on the same day as he was also up NEAR Cambodia. Interestingly enough, apparently in Tour of Duty, no mention of this firefight up near Cambodia (which Hurley argues was on the same day as the mortar attack) is even in the Tour of Duty account of Kerrys Christmas Eve and Christmas Day 1968 stay in Nam.

[ASPB]

Except it's pure BS and they'll be called on it. Sa Dec was as far up river as Swifts went. Anything past there was outside his AOR.

Questions for Hurley and Brinkley?

What was he doing outside his AOR?

If he made 3 or 4 trips to drop off troops what boats went with him? They never operated alone in the songs and dhongs out of An Thoi.

They're spinning so fast they're going to auger themselves all the way to hell. So much for Brinkley as a "historian".
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB

[Indianbaboon]

he went with PBRs he wasn't alone

[stop kerry]

you'll get a laugh from this new post I just did --now kerry says he was in cambodia in Jan.69?? So now that we are all fixated on his lies about Christmas 68 he just moved the goal posts to jan 69- wow what a liar

[one more captins mast]

So the goverments of Cambodia and South Viet nam, and the

U. S. Goverment, agree to put large concrete blocks and

tie them together with large wire cables and give notice to all

, ALL SHIPING , you can not go up this river. no no no.

Then every boat in the entire Navy in the entire Area of Operations


does not go there ever, not at all no one not one , all stay away


there are large "CONCRETE BLOCKS" ect. and low and behold

THE LONE STRANGER LT. JOHN KERRY ON HIS WHITE SWIFT BOAT

ASSISTED BY HIS TRUSTED little boat buddies, RIDE TO THE

RESCUE, THEY SHOOT TO KILL, THEY FLY IN THE FACE OF THE

GODS OF WAR, THEY KILL TEENAGERS, THEY USE THEIR BAND/AIDS

THEY WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY,

yes they will go down. all right.
_________________
the strange mr aj

[Reg]

A few questions to the folks here who have more knowledge than I--especially the vets who may have direct knowledge on these matters.

My Background:
Just so everyone is clear on where I am coming from... I was 2 years old in 1969. I never served in the military. I am not a Kerry supporter.

Kerry's "Sa Dec" story:
I think Kerry's X-mas 1968 "in" or "near" Cambodia/Sa Dec story has been proven to be false beyond a reasonable doubt. Also I am not convinced that this Sa Dec story was just a confusion on dates. Kerry kept a journal on this specific mission. It just doesn't ring true that he confused major facts on his only Christmas in Vietnam.

What I really want to talk about:
As you no doubt know, the Kerry folks have largely given up on Sa Dec. This is the new story from Kerry advisor Michael Meehan:

“During John Kerry's service in Vietnam, many times he was on or near the Cambodian border and on one occasion crossed into Cambodia at the request of members of a special operations group operating out of Ha Tien."

And this today from Doug Brinkely author of "Tour of Duty" via London Daily Telegraph :

"Mr. Brinkley rejected accusations that the senator had never been to Cambodia, insisting he was telling the truth about running undisclosed "black" missions there at the height of the war. He said: "Kerry went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions. He had a run dropping off US Navy Seals, Green Berets and CIA guys." The missions were not armed attacks on Cambodia, said Mr Brinkley, who did not include the clandestine missions in his wartime biography of Mr Kerry, Tour of Duty. "He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off."

After looking in to this new story a little bit while I don't know about the CIA/"Black mission" angle I cannot dismiss this story as being untrue. Could it be false, yes. But it is "consistent" with the facts as I--an amature-- know them.

Facts as I understand them:
Kerry was operating his PCF-94 with a new crew in late Jan,1969. At this point PCF-94 was under the command of CD-11 at An Thoi. (I know Kerry and PCF-44 are moved to CD-13 on 12/13/68 but somehow Kerry and PCF-94 appear in the command history of CD-11 at least by Feb. 1969.)

Now, as I understand it, CD-11's area of operations included, in part, Ha Tien, the Rach Giang Thanh River, and the Vinh Te Canal all of which are very near the Cambodian border. CD-11 command history's "basic narrative" talks about how "Costal Division ELEVEN constantly mantains units at Ha Tien to interdict enemy infiltration along the Rach Giang Thanh...[unreadable]".

For a useful map of the area in question here's an interesting map:
http://www.nexus.net/~911gfx/mapnc4806.html

Ok, so what about Kerry's PCF-94? I looked at the ""Spot Reports February 1969" from johnKerry.com. Here's the link:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/SpotReports_February1969.pdf

Now I have no previous experience reading these types of reports. However on the first "report" or page 1 see the following [w/ edits]:

"FEB 69"
....
"RACH GIANG THAN/KINH VINH TE PATROL"
"MARKET TIME Spot Report..."
....
"4. (C) CTE 194.5.4 , PCF 50, PCF 94"
"5. (C) M/T RAIDERS INTSERTED SEAL TEAMS AND PROVIDED SUPPORT THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT TILL EXTRACTION BY PCF'S-- MEANWHILE CONDUCTING NORMAL RIVER PATROL..."

What does this mean? Can someone read the report and determine the specific date in Feb.? My overall interpretation is that somewhere on the RACH GIANG THAN/KINH VINH TE water way PCF-94 and PCF-50 inserted and extracted a group of SEALS (CTE 194.5.4?). Not clear to me as to whether SEALS penetrated Cambodian border or not.

Now page down to the next spot report. Still Feb. 1969. Still seemingly on
"RACH GIANG THAN/KINH VINH TE PATROL". But now it seems that PCF-94 is the only PCF involved? And let's quote the next line in full:

"5. (C) WHILE ON PSYOPS/PAO MISSION TO VS 530553 MADE THRUST UP RIVER TO VS 518565 WHERE OBSERVED MAN CARRING RICE SACKS INFIELD. WOMAN IN AREA SAID SHE HAD JUST BEEN TAXED BY THAT MAN, AND SHOWED OINC THE RECIEPT.CONDUCTED CHASE BUT CROSSED BOARDER BEFORE CAPTURE. AREA A KNOWN V.C. EXTORTION STATION. INTEND RUN SEAL OPERATION IN AREA IN NEAR FUTURE."

My amature interpretation is that Kerry in PCF-94 is respecting the Cambodian boder here but knows he can get a SEAL team on a later mission to penetrate border. Is that a reasonable interpretation?

Next Spot Report. Still Feb 1969. Still RACH GIANG THAN/KINH VINH TE PATROL. Now we have PCF-50 and PCF-94 with CTE 194.5.4.5 and ATC 131.9. Can someone tell me what CTE and ATC mean?

"5. M/T RAIDERS INSERTED SEAL TEAMS AND PROVIDED PROTECTION [unreadable] CONDUCTING RIVER OPERATION REPT., EVAL. 32 , THAT V.C. WERE DUG IN AND WAITING TO AMBUSH PCF's AT VS 478515 SO GAVE AREA GOOD PREP FIRE AND ATC 131.9 SPRAYED BANKS ON K

CE INSERTED ATC 131.9 RETURNED TO PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION FOR VNN REACTION TEAM TO AREA OF POSSIBLE ENEMY INITIATED FIRE FIGHT POSITION. NEG CONTACT, NEG FRI. CAS.."

OK, so you get the picture. I have not gone through all the Spot reports from Feb or March but at least on some of the reports we seem to have verification that Kerry and PCF-94 were very close to the Cambodian boder and with SEAL teams. Whether these SEAL teams or PCF-94 actually went across the border -- on any of the missions described above-- is still unresolved (at least in my mind). And we still don't have the January Spot Reports to document any claims during that period.

Questions:
1. Am I wrong in the interpretation of these Spot Reports? How can I read the specific dates from the spot reports?
2. Side issue... Can anyone clear up the transfer back to CD-11 from CD-13? Was PCF-44 transfered also or just PCF-94? When?
3. Re-read the Kerry campaign statement again. Notice that it says,..."on one occasion crossed into Cambodia at the request of members of a special operations group operating out of Ha Tien." So his superior officer in CD-11 didn't give him the order to cross the Cambodian border. If true was this common for PCFs in CD-11? Is it possible for a PCF given the geogaphy for the RACH GIANG THAN/KINH VINH TE waterways? What would be the fallout if the CD-11 found out about PCFs going across the border?
4. Were these SEAL missions really clandestine or just a typical Market Time mission? Were they "classified" at a differently level?
5. Who was in overall command of the mission: the officer in charge of the SEAL team or the officer in charge of the PCF?
6. Who led PCF-50 in CD-11 during Feb. 1969?
7. If a PCF went across the border would it be in the Spot Report?
8. When is a spot report generated? Could there be multiple Spot reports for one mission? I had a feeling that I might be reading multiple spot reports for one days mission-- possible?