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riverChief Seaman Recruit
Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 2 Location: mobile alabama
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:55 am Post subject: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt _________________ srved on pcf 58 in early 69 and took it for refit and picked up the 40 boat and went to seafloat |
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The bandit Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 349
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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riverChief wrote: | everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt |
Absolutely Chief. Where you ever on a Swift where the OINC ordered it beached in front of hostile enemy fire?
Call me crazy, but I have this longggggg nagging feeling it was all staged by Kerry and his crew. I hope to aquire evidence for my hunch from FOIA requests from the Navy. |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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The bandit wrote: | riverChief wrote: | everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt |
Absolutely Chief. Where you ever on a Swift where the OINC ordered it beached in front of hostile enemy fire?
Call me crazy, but I have this longggggg nagging feeling it was all staged by Kerry and his crew. I hope to aquire evidence for my hunch from FOIA requests from the Navy. |
Give me a break, Bandit. "Staged by Kerry and his crew?" And I suppose all of the rest of us there -- the other two Swifts and their crews, the UDT guys and the Army advisors, and the South Vietnamese soldiers -- we were all in on it?
And the VC -- were they in on it too?
You can FOIA from now till the cows come home, but you'll never find that anything was staged, cause it wasn't.
Doug |
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The bandit Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 349
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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DougReese wrote: | The bandit wrote: | riverChief wrote: | everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt |
Absolutely Chief. Where you ever on a Swift where the OINC ordered it beached in front of hostile enemy fire?
Call me crazy, but I have this longggggg nagging feeling it was all staged by Kerry and his crew. I hope to aquire evidence for my hunch from FOIA requests from the Navy. |
Give me a break, Bandit. "Staged by Kerry and his crew?" And I suppose all of the rest of us there -- the other two Swifts and their crews, the UDT guys and the Army advisors, and the South Vietnamese soldiers -- we were all in on it?
And the VC -- were they in on it too?
You can FOIA from now till the cows come home, but you'll never find that anything was staged, cause it wasn't.
Doug |
In Jan. Medeiros and Kerry told the New Yorker they had pre-planned beaching the swift in front of the enemy to surprise them. Four months later Kerry says, no, it was because we were loaded down with troops and he had no choice but to beach.
Kerry had a real bright idea: because the troops were in the stern they would be out of harms way from fire coming from the front. Seem's old Kerry forgot about the potential of the VC firing from the other side of the
canal right into the stern of his Swift, where firing at the troops onboard would be like "shooting fish in a barrel." Kerry's bright mind doesn't seem to differentiate between small 40-100 foot wide canals with major wide rivers.
You and you're hero doesn't deserve a break. |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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[quote="The bandit]
Kerry had a real bright idea: because the troops were in the stern they would be out of harms way from fire coming from the front. Seem's old Kerry forgot about the potential of the VC firing from the other side of the
canal right into the stern of his Swift, where firing at the troops onboard would be like "shooting fish in a barrel." Kerry's bright mind doesn't seem to differentiate between small 40-100 foot wide canals with major wide rivers.
[quote]
So you know the type of weapons the VC had, as opposed to what the South Vietnmese soldiers had? And add to that the weapons Kerry's Swift had on the back.
And then there was the other two Swifts that were a short distance from Kerry's boat, with all their firepower.
"Fish in a barrel"? Hardly.
But that's OK. Spend inordinate amounts of time tracking down information that you feel is going to uncover some sort of wide conspiracy between the Swifts, advisors, UDT people & South Vietnamese. Oh, and let's not forget the VC, but then you can't really believe what those commies have to say, can you?
Doug |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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[quote="DougReese"][quote="The bandit]
Kerry had a real bright idea: because the troops were in the stern they would be out of harms way from fire coming from the front. Seem's old Kerry forgot about the potential of the VC firing from the other side of the
canal right into the stern of his Swift, where firing at the troops onboard would be like "shooting fish in a barrel." Kerry's bright mind doesn't seem to differentiate between small 40-100 foot wide canals with major wide rivers.
Quote: |
So you know the type of weapons the VC had, as opposed to what the South Vietnmese soldiers had? And add to that the weapons Kerry's Swift had on the back.
And then there was the other two Swifts that were a short distance from Kerry's boat, with all their firepower.
"Fish in a barrel"? Hardly.
But that's OK. Spend inordinate amounts of time tracking down information that you feel is going to uncover some sort of wide conspiracy between the Swifts, advisors, UDT people & South Vietnamese. Oh, and let's not forget the VC, but then you can't really believe what those commies have to say, can you?
Doug |
Doug,
Look man, a lot of us have hate for Kerry based upon what he did post-war. I don't even want to debate that in this thread but there "are" real professional questions about his behavior while in country.
I spent a full year as a POINC of either 1 or 2 ASPB's from Nov of 68 to Nov of 69. About 140 12-18 hour combat Patrols and 20 or more 3-4 day River Assault missions. I Know what the SOP was on patrol, insertion, extraction, and assault missions. I've worked with 9th infantry grunts, Ruff Puffs with MACV advisors, SEAL teams, and even a Cambodian trip with 4 OGA spooks. (OGA being a term I don't remember using back then, e.g. spooks = para-military CIA)
I've gotten a hint from other posts here that you claim to have been involved in both of the two major actions of Kerry's abbreviated combat career. Was his service Honorable! I have no reason to doubt it. IMHO anyone who served without Article 15 or courts-martial action served honorably; but the in-country questions that I have are about Kerry go character, motives, and potentially to political influence.
So! If you were really there on both occasions and can answer professional qestions and provide some onsite insite I'd love to correspond with you. Here in an open vet's only forum or privately if you'd prefer.
Know first that I am extremely desdainful of Kerry's actions after he caught the freedom bird. I'm also predisposed, based upon several months of study, to believe that his "combat record" is almost as much a legend as was J.F Kennedy's and Lyndon Johnson's; not that the Navy granted the awards but that, based upon personal experience, heroes and legends are easy to create if you're a self-promoting OINC.
If you want to correspond please let me know either by PM or in the open forum.
and another thing: This is unedited so forgive the typos, dropped words, and grammar and punctuation errors --it's been a long day!
Fair Winds Bro,
ASPB Riverrat _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB
Last edited by ASPB on Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LewWaters Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 4042 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:27 am Post subject: |
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The Liberal elite don't have rules, remember? Only us peons, according to them. |
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DevilDon Lt.Jg.
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 102 Location: Milwaukee
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: |
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I can't wait, this will be good. Puleeeeeeze respond Doug. |
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jalexson PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 272 Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:22 am Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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The bandit wrote: | riverChief wrote: | everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt |
Absolutely Chief. Where you ever on a Swift where the OINC ordered it beached in front of hostile enemy fire?
Call me crazy, but I have this longggggg nagging feeling it was all staged by Kerry and his crew. I hope to aquire evidence for my hunch from FOIA requests from the Navy. |
And when did the Navy start landing troops on a beach without softening it up first? It was always my understanding that the Navy would use what we called "H and I fire" in Vietnam to reduce the ability of any enemy near the beach to fire on the landing party. With luck shells might even detonate some mines on the beach. _________________ "That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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jalexson wrote: | The bandit wrote: | riverChief wrote: | everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt |
Absolutely Chief. Where you ever on a Swift where the OINC ordered it beached in front of hostile enemy fire?
Call me crazy, but I have this longggggg nagging feeling it was all staged by Kerry and his crew. I hope to aquire evidence for my hunch from FOIA requests from the Navy. |
And when did the Navy start landing troops on a beach without softening it up first? It was always my understanding that the Navy would use what we called "H and I fire" in Vietnam to reduce the ability of any enemy near the beach to fire on the landing party. With luck shells might even detonate some mines on the beach. |
Actually no Jal,
In the rivers and canals beaches were rare to non-existent. H & I was Army most of the time and rarely used in our service. When working with ground troups it was sneak and drop a recon team for extraction the next night. All on the qt. Not all the time...there were times in the MRF with the 9th Inf. that it was different; with battalion strength insertions of grunts from Tango boats with Monitor and ASPB support. These were often 3-4 day area sweeps. Artillery and Air Support would only be called in a heavy contact evolution. If you want to learn more about it go to MRFA.org. http://www.mrfa.org/ _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:13 am Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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jalexson wrote: | The bandit wrote: | riverChief wrote: | everyone knew, especially during SEALORDS that you didnt leave the boat. Kerry left the boat and got a Silver Star for it. He should have been courts martialed. for those that dont know our sop, as soon as someone leaves the boat, the boat is defenseless, if they catch fire from the beach the cannot return fire because of friendlies on the beach.kerry actually endangered his boat and his crew with his stupid stunt |
Absolutely Chief. Where you ever on a Swift where the OINC ordered it beached in front of hostile enemy fire?
Call me crazy, but I have this longggggg nagging feeling it was all staged by Kerry and his crew. I hope to aquire evidence for my hunch from FOIA requests from the Navy. |
And when did the Navy start landing troops on a beach without softening it up first? It was always my understanding that the Navy would use what we called "H and I fire" in Vietnam to reduce the ability of any enemy near the beach to fire on the landing party. With luck shells might even detonate some mines on the beach. |
I agree with what ASPB says about this.
One thing you have to keep in mind, and it's something just about all of us do one time or another -- the war was different, depending on where you were, what unit you were with, and when you were there.
To use this situation/place as an example, just who was there to do any H & I fire? The answer -- No one. As I mentioned in another thread about this, that area was out of range of US Arty (no US troops were even close), and even out of range of Vietnamese Arty, although just barely.
The Swifts, at that place and point in time, were pretty much on their own.
And for what it's worth, there were no mines on the beach. The Swifts had never been up this particular canal, so there'd be no reason for the VC to mine anything.
Doug |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:19 am Post subject: |
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DevilDon wrote: | I can't wait, this will be good. Puleeeeeeze respond Doug. |
Good in what way?
Assuming you've read my past posts, there won't be anything new.
Doug |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:29 am Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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[quote="ASPB"] DougReese wrote: | [quote="The bandit]
Kerry had a real bright idea: because the troops were in the stern they would be out of harms way from fire coming from the front. Seem's old Kerry forgot about the potential of the VC firing from the other side of the
canal right into the stern of his Swift, where firing at the troops onboard would be like "shooting fish in a barrel." Kerry's bright mind doesn't seem to differentiate between small 40-100 foot wide canals with major wide rivers.
Quote: |
So you know the type of weapons the VC had, as opposed to what the South Vietnmese soldiers had? And add to that the weapons Kerry's Swift had on the back.
And then there was the other two Swifts that were a short distance from Kerry's boat, with all their firepower.
"Fish in a barrel"? Hardly.
But that's OK. Spend inordinate amounts of time tracking down information that you feel is going to uncover some sort of wide conspiracy between the Swifts, advisors, UDT people & South Vietnamese. Oh, and let's not forget the VC, but then you can't really believe what those commies have to say, can you?
Doug |
I've gotten a hint from other posts here that you claim to have been involved in both of the two major actions of Kerry's abbreviated combat career. |
Not quite. I was there 28 Feb, but not really on 13 April (Bronze Star), at least not when that incident happened.
On 13 April we (the advisors and VN troops) were picked up by the Swifts and taken up the very same canal as 28 Feb. The canal is right next to the village (named after it, as a matter of fact), so we're not talking much in the way of distance.
We were dropped back off at the village after being up there a bit, and after one of the Nungs was killed. On the way out -- back to the LST (An Thoi?) -- is when they hit those mines and Rassman was thrown off the boat, etc.
Doug |
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The bandit Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 349
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:21 am Post subject: |
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DougReese wrote:
> And for what it's worth, there were no mines on the beach. The Swifts had
> never been up this particular canal, so there'd be no reason for the VC to
> mine anything.
They were on the same canal a day earlier, doesn't that count?
Straight from Kerry's site:
27 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
On an evening patrol with two other swiftboats, PCFs 23 and 43, about 26 miles south of Ca Mu, the patrol took heavy fire, including five rockets. Three rockets narrowly missed Kerry's boat, and exploded on the opposite bank. Another rocket exploded near PCF 94, and the fifth exploded near PCF 23, wounding a crewmember on that boat. The boats suppressed the fire and withdrew. During the battle, a sailor on Kerry's boat, Crewmember/Trainee Michael J. Givens was shot in the upper right arm. Givens injuries were not serious and he was sent to the 79th field hospital in Can Tho.
28 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
Three PCFs were traveling up the Bay Hap River with 70 South Vietnamese Militia investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night. During the patrol, the boats came under heavy fore from the shore. Kerry, serving as the Officer in Tactical Command of the mission, ordered the units to turn toward the fire and beach. As the boats approached shore, more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran. They were quickly overrun when the Marines troops reached the shore. While the Militia searched the area, PCFs 23 and 94 left to investigate another site where an Army advisor reported gunshots. Returning from the site, a B-40 rocket exploded close to PCF94, blowing out one of the windows. Kerry again ordered the units to turn into the fire and charge the ambush site. PCF 94 landed in the center of ambush and a man jumped up holding a B-40 rocket launcher and started to run. The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him. Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swiftboats. The landing parties found vast stores of rice, ammunition and clothing. The boats were fired on one additional time as they were heading back down the river. The site of the second ambush was believed to be a major Viet Cong supply point. Kerry received the Silver Star for this operation. |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:39 am Post subject: |
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The bandit wrote: | DougReese wrote:
> And for what it's worth, there were no mines on the beach. The Swifts had
> never been up this particular canal, so there'd be no reason for the VC to
> mine anything.
They were on the same canal a day earlier, doesn't that count?
Straight from Kerry's site:
27 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
On an evening patrol with two other swiftboats, PCFs 23 and 43, about 26 miles south of Ca Mu, the patrol took heavy fire, including five rockets. Three rockets narrowly missed Kerry's boat, and exploded on the opposite bank. Another rocket exploded near PCF 94, and the fifth exploded near PCF 23, wounding a crewmember on that boat. The boats suppressed the fire and withdrew. During the battle, a sailor on Kerry's boat, Crewmember/Trainee Michael J. Givens was shot in the upper right arm. Givens injuries were not serious and he was sent to the 79th field hospital in Can Tho.
28 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
Three PCFs were traveling up the Bay Hap River with 70 South Vietnamese Militia investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night. During the patrol, the boats came under heavy fore from the shore. Kerry, serving as the Officer in Tactical Command of the mission, ordered the units to turn toward the fire and beach. As the boats approached shore, more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran. They were quickly overrun when the Marines troops reached the shore. While the Militia searched the area, PCFs 23 and 94 left to investigate another site where an Army advisor reported gunshots. Returning from the site, a B-40 rocket exploded close to PCF94, blowing out one of the windows. Kerry again ordered the units to turn into the fire and charge the ambush site. PCF 94 landed in the center of ambush and a man jumped up holding a B-40 rocket launcher and started to run. The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him. Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swiftboats. The landing parties found vast stores of rice, ammunition and clothing. The boats were fired on one additional time as they were heading back down the river. The site of the second ambush was believed to be a major Viet Cong supply point. Kerry received the Silver Star for this operation. |
No, it doesn't count, cause they weren't on the same canal. As I said, before 28 Feb they were never up that canal. Specifically, the Dong Cung Canal. That canal runs off, to the north, of the Bay Hap River.
More from those great after-action reports, or whatever they're called. Keep reading them and you'll be totally confused as to what happened, where, how, etc.
The 27 Feb incident happened on their way back (on the Bay Hap) from our village, as they came in to discuss what we were going to do the next day -- 28 Feb. On 27 Feb they were only on the Bay Hap River, not the Dong Cung Canal.
And on that next day (28 Feb), the incident that occured, occured on the Dong Cung Canal. . . . . NOT the Bay Hap River.
Doug |
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