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U.S. Servicemen React to Bush Guard Memos

 
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JK
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:59 pm    Post subject: U.S. Servicemen React to Bush Guard Memos Reply with quote

Another article to smear the President and downplay the swift boat veterans for truth....author just states "Navy records and other veterans do not support the charge". Its that easy for the press to support Kerry.

JK

U.S. Servicemen React to Bush Guard Memos
By ELLIOTT MINOR
Associated Press Writer
Newsday


ALBANY, Ga. (AP) - Frank Jones says he's angry about newly revealed memos that indicate President Bush got preferential treatment in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam war, but he's not surprised by favoritism in the Guard.

Jones, a Republican from Troy, N.Y., served in Vietnam in 1970 and 1971 before doing 16 years in the Guard himself. As the presidential election nears, Jones says controversy over both candidates' military records and the mounting death toll in Iraq are important issues.

``I'm really in neither camp at this point,'' he said. ``However, I do see a direct correlation to Vietnam. The body count is really starting to get to me.''

Some current and retired members of the National Guard and other military services say the newly revealed Bush documents do not bother them, while others say they are troubling.

The documents, which became fodder for Democratic critics last week, indicate Bush was suspended from flying with his Texas Air National Guard unit because he missed a medical exam and that he missed six months of training. Questions have been raised about the documents' authenticity.

Lt. Col. Jim Driscoll, spokesman for the Georgia Army National Guard, said retired service members may comment on political issues such as the Bush documents, but most current reservists and active-duty service members will hesitate to voice their political opinions.

``It would be inappropriate,'' he said. ``The president is our commander-in-chief and so we have to be very careful from an ethical perspective of how we express our political opinions.''

Some who served in the National Guard say it is common practice to miss drills - even up to six months - because of job conflicts, family problems or illness.

Ralph Bradley, 56, a Republican from Albany who served three years in Vietnam in the Air Force and 17 years in the Georgia Army National Guard, said members are encouraged to make up drills so they don't lose pay or retirement benefits.

``There's all kinds of situations ... that cause a person to go out of state for a period of time,'' he said.

Army Reserve Sgt. Tim Wilding, 37, of Jefferson City, Mo., agreed.

Back home for two weeks of leave from Iraq, Wilding said he remains a staunch Bush supporter despite allegations Bush may have tried to get out of Guard drills for several months in 1972.

``A lot of guys don't serve for four or five months at a time,'' he said. ``They've got other stuff going on. They'll make it up later on, or they just won't get paid. That's really no big deal to a lot of National Guard soldiers.''

Allegations of suspect conduct during the Vietnam war also have been leveled at John Kerry, who won three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in Vietnam.

A group sponsoring television ads challenging his wartime record contends Kerry's own gunfire caused the wound that brought his first Purple Heart. Navy records and other veterans do not support the charge.

Ahmad Majied of Albany says the latest allegations about Bush's military record are more troubling to him than allegations about service honors leveled at Democratic challenger Kerry.

Majied, a Democrat from Albany who served 30 years in the Navy, including five years as a SEAL in Vietnam, said the memos support his belief that Bush was a ``playboy'' during his service years.

``He had enough money to get what he wanted,'' Majied said. ``I think his main concern was not to go to Southeast Asia. I bet he never dreamed it would come back to haunt him.''

Neal Eubanks of Leesburg, who served 39 years in the military - 23 in the Air Force and 16 in the Georgia Army National Guard - said the presidential candidates should move beyond their military records and focus on the issues, such as the economy and unemployment.

``You don't see Korean veterans or World War II veterans or Grenada veterans always talking about 'I served here and I served there,''' said Eubanks, 67, a Bush supporter.

Associated Press writers Russ Bynum in Savannah, Ga., David Lieb in Jefferson City, Mo., and Michael Gormley in Albany, N.Y., contributed to this report.


09/11/04 13:47

Newsday

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Admin note: Link to Newsday story added
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RMalloy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take an ex-jet pilot playboy anytime over a lying, cheating, traitor
any day.
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Chuck Z Ombie AC2000
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its more likely and natural for one to enjoy their 20s while they have them than fight in a war. but i dnt think its natural to condemn the soldiers who do fight as criminals. big difference here.

Do i care if Bush goofed off in the national guard? Nope

Do i care if Kerry faked his medals and besmirched our brave soldiers, yes , hell yes.
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Tom Poole
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the Guard required 50 points annually along with some specified number of drills. It was my understanding from the record that Bush fulfilled the point and drill requirements for all years served and was granted non-flight status because he was not checked out in the Alabama Guard planes. In his earlier years, he greatly surpassed requirements but in the last two years, he served the minimum in order to help the campaign and attend graduate school. Many of us who did years of active duty received "early outs" for college, etc. Regarding special assistance into the Guard, as alleged by Barnes...well, as all Texans know, Barnes' unsavory record speaks for itself. Three great scandals which made him enormously wealthy were the Sharpstown Bank scandal, the Texas Lottery scandal and the real estate scandal which bankrupted Governor Connally. Certainly a special entre is extremely doubtful at this point and the accusers are probably guilty of forgery.
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rparrott21
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's to say that these memo's are true anyway....President Bush has been on active duty for the past 4 yrs....
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Me#1You#10
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving to Geedunk

Thanks
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lrb111
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical AP. Tell the lie, then report how many agree, we should hear about the "groundswell" of support for kerry next. Whether it exists or not.
yellow journalism at it's finest.
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well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast.
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TEWSPilot
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Texans will understand)

I'm waiting for a memo to surface connecting Bush to Billy Sol Estes. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Bush's Advantage on Military Service
By Ben Johnson
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 10, 2004


"Mr. President, you and I know that…if service or non-service in the [Vietnam] war is to become a test of qualification for high office…our nation would never recover from the divisions created by that war."– Sen. John Kerry on the Senate floor, 1992.

The narrowly partisan opponents of the current War on Terrorism, panicked by the pro-war president’s double-digit lead in the polls, have drudged up their archaic ace-in-the-hole: the president’s service record in the Air National Guard. This issue is growing so old, it should have whiskers. The latest round of 527 commercials target alleged gaps in George W. Bush’s service in the National Guard. This time, a group named "Texans for Truth" is airing ads questioning whether George W. Bush ever flew in the Alabama National Guard in 1972. They charge, among other things, that Bush missed a physical examination, proving he never fulfilled his duty. Having had this issue vetted during two races for governor of Texas, one Republican primary and two presidential elections, the public has shown itself content with Bush’s affirmative answer. The last time the Left trotted out this charge – only six months ago – a young lady Bush dated in 1972 even confirmed that he completed his training in Montgomery. The facts show George W. Bush served honorably in the National Guard from 1968-73, volunteering the most hours when the country was most likely to call on him and decreasing his flight time as the nation pulled out of Vietnam. Weighing their records on balance, George W. Bush’s service record appears far more commendable than John Kerry’s.

The Facts on Bush’s National Guard Duty

George W. Bush entered the Texas Air National Guard upon graduating from Yale in May of 1968. For the next two years, Bush would fly almost non-stop for 80 weeks, making his Reserve duty a full-time job. From May 1968-69, he earned 253 flight points, more than five times the required annual minimum for Reserve members. He earned nearly 100 points more than that the following year. From 1970-72, he earned more than twice his minimum each year.

In 1972, he famously asked to be transferred to the Alabama National Guard, so he could work on a political campaign. He earned only 56 points from May 1972-73. In the summer of 1973, he earned another 56 points in just two months and was granted an honorable discharge six months before completing his six-year commitment. It is this latter portion of service the Left has seized upon. Non-veterans Terry MacAuliffe and Michael Moore have (falsely) described Bush as "AWOL" during this time. Others wondered how Bush could be allowed to turn in fewer hours in 1972-3 than he did the four previous years. The president’s opportunistic critics overlook the context of his Guard service: the conditions of the Vietnam War.

Bush entered the Guard at the high water mark of Lyndon Johnson’s escalation policies. By 1969, more than half-a-million U.S. soldiers were stationed in Vietnam. After the inauguration of Richard Nixon, the Republican who campaigned on a platform of "peace with honor" began the first significant troop withdrawals: 75,000 by the end of 1969. Through his policy of "Vietnamization," Nixon recalled another 170,000 American troops by 1971. Despite these improvements, the American presence was significant.

It was during these years that George W. Bush logged the largest number of flight hours; precisely when he was needed the most, during the period of greatest likelihood he would be called into active duty for his country. According to his superiors, that service proved exemplary; Bush’s commanders peppered his five-plus year service record with commendations. In 1970, an evaluator raved Bush "clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot," calling the future president "a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership." How prophetic.

Over the next two years, the pace of President Nixon’s troop draw-downs would accelerate faster than he intended. This is also when the president (intentionally) decreased the number of draftees, soon phasing out conscription altogether. The last American ground troops were removed on August 23, 1972. Seven months later, Nixon pronounced, "The day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come," as he withdrew the last American troops from Vietnam in March 1973. And this was when George W. Bush put in only the minimum fly time necessary – when he was least needed and least likely to be called into service.

By 1972, the services were overrun with grounded pilots. In yesterday’s edition of The Hill, Byron York quotes retired Colonel William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971. Campenni recalled:


In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots. The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.

By the time Bush put in for an early discharge, after he met all the fly time required, the Air Force was scrambling to shed unneeded officers, and there was no American presence in Vietnam whatever. The services welcomed the departure of a reservist who had logged far more than his required hours and would merely sit idle for six months. They had no war to fight; even the "real" servicemen had been called out– to the chagrin of democratic South Vietnamese. At the insistence of Congressional Democrats, who had Nixon over a barrel thanks to Watergate, America was AWOL from this battle, and our allies would pay the price.

These facts have not killed the liberal media’s outcry over the story – for the fourth or fifth time. Although Bush has turned over all his service records – including some the military, according to regulations, should have destroyed decades ago – while Kerry has stonewalled on his, the mainstream media pounced on the Bush story (just as they ignored the Swiftboat Vets’ ads at the height of that controversy). And though every media outlet in the country hinted at a Bush connection to the Swiftboat Vets operation, only former Republican Representative Joe Scarborough had the decency to investigate the background of these new "independent" campaigners. On his show last night, Scarborough pointed out that "Texans for Truth" organizer Glenn Smith had been a consultant for MoveOn.org, promoted the anti-Bush book Bush’s Brain, and was an associate of both Paul Begala and Ann Richards.

Making Political Hay on Vietnam

In response to these false and despicable ads, a prominent senator known as a war hero stated:


I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way…The race for the White House should be about leadership, and leadership requires that one help heal the wounds of Vietnam, not reopen them…We do not need to divide America over who served and how.

No, it was not John McCain. OK, that was Senator John Kerry discussing Bill Clinton’s draft evasion on the Senate floor in 1992. In the 2004 presidential campaign, Kerry has been injecting Vietnam into the discussion at every opportunity. During his ridiculous midnight campaign rally after President Bush’s speech at the Republican National Convention, Kerry again played the Vietnam card: "The Vice President called me unfit for office last night." (He didn’t.) "Well, I'll leave it up to the voters to decide whether five deferments makes someone more qualified to defend this nation than two tours of duty." The conventional wisdom agrees: Kerry’s Purple Hearts trump Bush’s flights over the Gulf of Mexico. However, a closer look reveals Kerry’s war service record not be an advantage over Bush’s complete record at all.

Kerry’s Service

Bill Clinton claims that during Vietnam, John Kerry responded to his nation’s call with an Isaiah-like, "Send me." As usual, Clinton trimmed the facts to fit his story. Kerry went into the service in 1966 after petitioning his draft board for a deferment so he could study in Paris. (Kerry did not say, "Send me"; he said, "Non, merci.") John O’Neill’s Unfit for Command summarizes Kerry’s actions after the board denied his request:


Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy ... The top choice was the Navy Reserves where the duty commitment was shorter and a larger proportion of the period could be served stateside on inactive duty.

John Kerry's service record indicates that on Feb. 18, 1966, he enlisted in the United States Naval Reserves, status "inactive," not in the U.S. Navy.

Interestingly, Kerry would later equate George W. Bush’s service in the Reserves with going to Canada.

In December 1968, the Navy sent Kerry into Vietnam for the most celebrated four-month tour of duty in combat history. The Swiftboat Vets have raised troubling questions about nearly every aspect of Kerry’s service, including the conditions under which he was awarded all his medals. It appears Kerry put himself forward for Purple Hearts every time he scratched himself, racked up three medals, then got himself sent out of harm’s way on an arcane technicality forgotten by most men (including his commanding officers). Kerry petitioned for his third Purple Heart – probably the result of a self-inflicted grenade wound received on March 13, 1969, which he fibbed about – and asked to be sent stateside within four days. (On the Dick Cavett Show in 1971, he would claim he agonized for weeks over whether to leave the Mekong Delta.) After being sent home in April of 1969, Kerry asked his commanding officer, Admiral Walter F. Schlech Jr., "to tell his boss that his conscience dictated that he protest the war, that he wanted out of the Navy immediately so that he could run for Congress." So Kerry, too, left the service to work on a political campaign – his own. (He lost.) Unlike President Bush, though, he did not ask to be transferred to another state to complete his mandatory service; he left the service altogether – at the height of American involvement, to demonize his fellow countrymen.

Also unlike Bush, Kerry had not yet completed the prerequisites of service: specifically, to serve six more months. George W. Bush identified with and supported the troops by flying the most hours when American GIs were putting in the heaviest sacrifices and left only after civilian command completely withdrew American troops from Vietnam. Kerry would ask to be sent home from the heat of battle when troop strength was at a near-record high, then demand to be released even from domestic service, for reasons of "conscience." Six months after his discharge in January of 1970, John Kerry would begin agitating with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Although still a member of the Naval Reserves (he did not leave that service until 1978), John Kerry personally met with the North Vietnamese communists in Paris in 1970, a violation of the Logan Act and certainly an act bordering on treason. It was at this time he supported the "People’s Peace Treaty," a communist propaganda agreement calling for a total, immediate, unilateral American withdrawal from Vietnam.

In early 1971, he would hold the infamous Winter Soldier Investigation with Jane Fonda and a host of false veterans while his "band of brothers" continued to face deadly fire from "Victor Charlie." Even those "Winter Soldiers" who had actually set foot in Southeast Asia have since admitted their stories were contrived. One such veteran, Steven J. Pitkin, swore in an affadavit last Tuesday:


During the Winter Soldier Investigation, John Kerry and other leaders of that event pressured me to testify about American war crimes, despite my repeated statements that I could not honestly do so. ... Kerry and other leaders of the event instructed me to publicly state that I had witnessed incidents of rape, brutality, atrocities and racism, knowing that such statements would necessarily be untrue.

Pitkin later said, "[Kerry] did what I call extreme coaching" of witnesses.

A mere six months after this performance, John Kerry addressed the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971, where he claimed American GIs had:


raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in [a] fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam….

North Vietnamese jailers used Kerry’s words to torture American POWs, including John McCain. Paul Galanti, who spent more than six years in captivity and volunteered on McCain’s 2000 presidential campaign, said the North Vietnamese often cited Kerry personally: "They wanted us to…confess to war crimes and killing babies and all this other stuff. They kept talking about Vietnam Veterans Against the War, they had seen the right way and…they had crossed over to the peoples' [i.e., Communist] side."

A few months later, Kerry would be the one contemplating violence, attending a VVAW meeting in which that body would consider assassinating a U.S. senator.

Kerry, in other words, served four months, was sent home after three scratches (including one self-inflicted wound to the buttocks) and immediately began giving Americans enemies torture fodder to use against his old Navy buddies in the Hanoi Hilton. During the same one-year period, George W. Bush was racking up 137 flight points, wearing the uniform of his country. He would continue to do so until after America’s involvement in the war ended. Bush’s Guard service, deeply rooted in his sense of patriotism, is beginning to look better and better. And Kerry’s service – every moment filmed for his political posterity, every loophole exploited out of self-preservation – is beginning to look less appealing every moment.

And who knows what we’ll find out after John Kerry releases all his service records?
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Theresa Alwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rush did an extensive talk about President Bush guard service on Thursday You can go to Rush's website and go back to Thursday's transcript....there is much more but this is what Rush had to say about Bush Guard service. I edited out a few sentences that had nothing to do with his actual Guard service...and if you want to take the time for the transcript it is really quite good and mentions swiftvets quite a bit.

www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_090904/content/truth_detector.guest.html

RUSH: So just for the record, here, in full, is what Bush did: The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training. That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years. Not two years of weekends. Two years. After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements."

And this is interesting. "At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation. According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis). Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot.

"That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports - Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971. 'In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,' Campenni says. 'The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.'

"So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement. Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently. In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year. Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service. During his service, Bush received high marks as a pilot. A 1970 evaluation said Bush 'clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot' and was 'a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership.'" He got a bunch of other citations.


Continues on about swiftvets and more comments. Very Happy Very Happy
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baldeagl
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have blogged the facts about Bush's Guard service. Here's the answers to the most frequent charges.

1) Was Bush shown favoritism in entering the Guard? No.

Ben Barnes testified in court that neither GHW Bush nor GW Bush ever spoke to him about getting the younger Bush in the Guard.

Ben Barnes' own daughter stated in interviews over the past two days that her father is "lying about getting Bush in the Guard" for political reasons and because it will help promote his book.

Ben Barnes' legislative aide testified in court that he was certain that Barnes did not give him Bush's name to pass on to the commanding officer, Gen. Rose. His aide was in the Guard himself and testified that he frequently carried "names" from Barnes to Gen. Rose to help out wealthy folks' kids.

Brig. Gen. Staudt stated that anyone who says Bush had help getting in to the Guard was "a damned liar". He further stated that Bush was accepted immediately because he was "one of the few" who were willing to put in the extensive hours needed to become a pilot.

The Dallas Morning News investigated the charges in 1999 and discovered that when Bush applied, despite waiting lines in the "thousands" he was accepted immediately because there were "2 or 3 openings for pilots".

2) Did Bush ignore a direct order to take a physical? No.

The documents CBS offered as proof have been clearly and conclusively been shown to be forgeries.

3) Did Bush ignore his duty requirements and not fulfill his minimum requirements? No.

Every correct analysis of his records has shown that he exceeded the minimums every year he was in the Guard.

All of this is carefully and thoroughly documented on my blog.
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farmgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="baldeagl"]I have blogged the facts about Bush's Guard service. Here's the answers to the most frequent charges.

1) Was Bush shown favoritism in entering the Guard? No.

Ben Barnes testified in court that neither GHW Bush nor GW Bush ever spoke to him about getting the younger Bush in the Guard.

Ben Barnes' own daughter stated in interviews over the past two days that her father is "lying about getting Bush in the Guard" for political reasons and because it will help promote his book.

Ben Barnes' legislative aide testified in court that he was certain that Barnes did not give him Bush's name to pass on to the commanding officer, Gen. Rose. His aide was in the Guard himself and testified that he frequently carried "names" from Barnes to Gen. Rose to help out wealthy folks' kids.

Brig. Gen. Staudt stated that anyone who says Bush had help getting in to the Guard was "a damned liar". He further stated that Bush was accepted immediately because he was "one of the few" who were willing to put in the extensive hours needed to become a pilot.

The Dallas Morning News investigated the charges in 1999 and discovered that when Bush applied, despite waiting lines in the "thousands" he was accepted immediately because there were "2 or 3 openings for pilots".

2) Did Bush ignore a direct order to take a physical? No.

The documents CBS offered as proof have been clearly and conclusively been shown to be forgeries.

3) Did Bush ignore his duty requirements and not fulfill his minimum requirements? No.

Every correct analysis of his records has shown that he exceeded the minimums every year he was in the Guard.

All of this is carefully and thoroughly documented on my blog.[/quote]


This is all amazing to me that this can be drudged up YET again about Bush and the media once again is all over it. They act like this is the first time its come out. This is the 2nd time around!! And, I havent read the postings above so this, im sure, is redundant BUT, isn't the point that Kerry made it his WHOLE DNC and campain issue?? I think people could care less about Bush's past cuz he is already proved himself and he never claimed to be a "war hero" like idiot Kerry. I think this is the whole issue. And IM very curious to see if the media totally ignors the "kerry lied" rally tomrrow in DC. I guess Im just shocked that cbs could blantently interview Joe Wilson, That other idiot that wrote a book about Bush - during the 9/11 commission -his name escapes me, and now this Barnes guy. I can't believe they say they are not biased whenthey have NEVER interviewed one pro-Bush book writer - let alone a BEST Selling NY TIMES book "unfit for command" and they all ignore it. It just makes me so mad that this is so one-sided and they get away with it. I just thank god the american people see thru this obvious liberal bias. Its so blantantly obvious, its embarrassing.
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TEWSPilot
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:29 am    Post subject: More for "fence sitters" to think about Reply with quote

Some people are saying, "I don't care what Bush or Kerry did 30 odd years ago. I only care about what they are doing now and will do in the future."

OK, how far back do you need to go to be able to assess one's performance -- necessary to be able to have some way of determining what he has EVER done, is doing now, and what he will do in the future? 5 years? 10 years? Pick a cutoff.

One additional factor is this: If a guy was a goof-off 30 years ago but has grown up and changed his life, is that a reasonable fact to use in the evaluation? If a guy was a goof-off 30 years ago and is STILL a goof-off now, is that relevant?

There are three kinds of people and three choices to make in life:

1. Leader -- those who make it happen
2. Follower -- those who watch and sometimes help the leader make it happen
3. (You know where this is going) "Moderates" -- those who wonder what happened. They need to get out of the way.

The point I am making:

Pick a number!
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