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Nomorelies
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:50 am Post subject: Joe Scarborough on Dan Rather |
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Guests Howard Fineman, Bob Eberle, Carl Linebacher, and Zelnick had a very intelligent round-table discussion about the fall out from the CBS Rathergate.
Joe Scarborough ended the show saying that CBS has confirmed the worst suspicions of people who have always believed that BIG media has a liberal agenda.
Howard Fineman sais he still believes that BIG media can handle the news with honesty but that Dan Rather has to come clean for the sake of the industry.
All four agreed that Dan Rather has lowered the bar for journalism and that he must open the entire matter up to independent investigators to determine what happened and who was responsible.
Carl Linebacher (Newsweek.com) actually said that a crime has been committed (forgery) and that makes the issue worse than just having a political agenda against a sitting President during an election year.
All agreed that CBS cannot continue to rage about pajama-clad-bloggers as if they were all partisan hacks not worthy of consideration and that because of bloggers they could no longer get away with controlling the news and abusing their positions.
All panelists agreed that with criticism coming from the LA Times, Dallas Morning News, AP, Newsweek, etc., that it's no longer JUST the bloggers who want answers.
Further, Dan Rather's position that people have to "prove him wrong" just won't catch it. They all said that Dan Rather has to prove himself right which, from the tone of the conversation, none of these believe he can do.
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MJB
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Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to have missed it - sounds like it was actually rather (*ahem*) impartial and factual.
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ProudDaughterofVet
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Anyone know when Joe's show is repeated?? I would like to have seen it..thanks..
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Chuck Z Ombie AC2000
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Does he release transripts of his show?
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John Kerry, R.I.P. (Rot In Paris) |
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Mona
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 77
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:34 am Post subject: |
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And WaPo has a devastating piece just out. Sorry I didn't grab a link, but Kerry Spot and LGF are both heralding it. Rather is such toast.
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m_drummond
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 129
Location: Dallas TX
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Correction: Limbacher is with NewsMax.
Addition: Eberle is with GOPUSA and Talon. Zelnick is Prof Bob Zelnick, formerly of ABC
It was indeed a bad program for Gunga Dan. Howard and Zelnick were really trying to protect the integrity of Big Media - it's a mistake, not done purposely, no bias, yada yada yada - but their fear was obvious.
Try and catch a repeat. Wish I could remember what the latest Rather balooney, Howard was trying to tell with a serious face - off camera you could heard Joe burst out laughing. Howard laughed a little then regained his game face.
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Last edited by m_drummond on Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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azpatriot
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 593
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Mona wrote: | | And WaPo has a devastating piece just out. Sorry I didn't grab a link, but Kerry Spot and LGF are both heralding it. Rather is such toast. |
Is this the article?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18982-2004Sep13.html
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DaveL
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| ProudDaughterofVet wrote: | Anyone know when Joe's show is repeated?? I would like to have seen it..thanks..
PD |
MSNBC at 1am MDT (3am eastern I believe) and worth watching! |
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Chuck Z Ombie AC2000
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Joined: 19 Aug 2004
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Location: Northern New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Paste the article please? i have enough spam mail without registering for more.
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Mona
Seaman Apprentice
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Yes, thanks. I had just gone back to get it -- felt guilty about not doing "my share."
Dr. Newcomer is prominently featured, as well he should be.
The importance of this tidal wave of MSM turning against Rather and his memos -- which are also a large element in Kittie Kelly's trash book -- cannot be overestimated. This was all a coordinated effort to help Kerry in his "Fortunate Son" campaign contra Bush. A key part of that effort, the virtual linchpin, has now got them with collective egg on their face, and the plan gone haywire.
And if these forgeries are traced to Kerry & Co. or the DNC? Oh my. And believe me, MSM is looking for answers there. Why? Because enough of them ARE journalists who simply cannot pass up such an opportunity. I'm sure most would prefer the situation were reversed -- that these were Swiftee forgeries being used against Kerry -- but they smell blood in the water and this kind of story is every reporter's dream. Besides, a lot of them hate Dan Rather. He has quite a few enemies in his profession.
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ProudDaughterofVet
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 340
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Dave..well, I missed that one..but I looked it up on the Mess website..and my husband is going to use the DVR to tape it, it comes on again at 3am, and I will bel sleeping, I hope..thanks for the help all..
From the posts it looks like a intelligent conversation took place, huh? Good for Joe..he had Bernie Goldberg ( I believe that is his name) the one who wrote..Bias..and Arrogance on his show on Friday last and this guy was right on. I remember when he came out against the media with his book Bias..now, he is convinced that the MSM is shaking in their collective liberal boots..they are on the decline and they know it..try and read the transcript..He and Pat Cadell where on target..in fact, Pat Cadell said that, " the American People need someone to protect them against the media!"..I could be paraphrasing, but something to that effect..
OMG..I went on and on..forgive me..just get so excited when the truth is finally being heard..
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Chuck Z Ombie AC2000
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Joined: 19 Aug 2004
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Location: Northern New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Is this it?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5993683/
| Quote: | Expert cited by CBS didn't verify papers
Says he only examined officer's signature
The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves
"There's no way that I, as a document expert, can authenticate them," Marcel Matley said in a telephone interview from San Francisco. The main reason, he said, is that they are "copies" that are "far removed" from the originals.
Matley's comments came amid growing evidence challenging the authenticity of the documents aired Wednesday on CBS's "60 Minutes." The program was part of an investigation asserting that Bush benefited from political favoritism in getting out of commitments to the Texas Air National Guard. On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said again that the network "believes the documents are authentic."
• Bush's records keep trickling out
A detailed comparison by The Washington Post of memos obtained by CBS News with authenticated documents on Bush's National Guard service reveals dozens of inconsistencies, ranging from conflicting military terminology to different word-processing techniques.
The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.
"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.
Newcomer drew an analogy with an art expert trying to determine whether a painting of unknown provenance was painted by Leonardo Da Vinci. "If I was looking for a Da Vinci, I would look for characteristic brush strokes," he said. "If I found something that was painted with a modern synthetic brush, I would know that I have a forgery."
Laura Bush weighs in
Meanwhile, Laura Bush became the first person from the White House to say the documents are likely forgeries. "You know they are probably altered," she told Radio Iowa in Des Moines yesterday. "And they probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really."
Citing confidentiality issues, CBS News has declined to reveal the source of the disputed documents -- which have been in the network's possession for more than a month -- or to explain how they came to light after more than three decades. Yesterday, USA Today said that it had independently obtained copies of the documents "from a person with knowledge of Texas Air National Guard operations" who declined to be named "for fear of retaliation."
It was unclear whether the same person supplied the documents to both media outlets. USA Today said it had obtained its copies of the CBS documents Wednesday night "soon after" the "60 Minutes" broadcast, as well as another two purported Killian memos that had not been made public.
A detailed examination of the CBS documents beside authenticated Killian memos and other documents generated by Bush's 147th Fighter Interceptor Group suggests at least three areas of difference that are difficult to reconcile:
• Word-processing techniques. Of more than 100 records made available by the 147th Group and the Texas Air National Guard, none used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents. Nor did they use a superscripted "th" in expressions such as "147th Group" and or "111th Fighter Intercept Squadron."
In a CBS News broadcast Friday night rebutting allegations that the documents had been forged, Rather displayed an authenticated Bush document from 1968 that included a small "th" next to the numbers "111" as proof that Guard typewriters were capable of producing superscripts. In fact, say Newcomer and other experts, the document aired by CBS News does not contain a superscript, because the top of the "th" character is at the same level as the rest of the type. Superscripts rise above the level of the type.
• Factual problems. A CBS document purportedly from Killian ordering Bush to report for his annual physical, dated May 4, 1972, gives Bush's address as "5000 Longmont #8, Houston." This address was used for many years by Bush's father, George H.W. Bush. National Guard documents suggest that the younger Bush stopped using that address in 1970 when he moved into an apartment, and did not use it again until late 1973 or 1974, when he moved to Cambridge, Mass., to attend Harvard Business School.
One CBS memo cites pressure allegedly being put on Killian by "Staudt," a reference to Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, one of Bush's early commanders. But the memo is dated Aug. 18, 1973, nearly a year and a half after Staudt retired from the Guard. Questioned about the discrepancy over the weekend, CBS officials said that Staudt was a "mythic figure" in the Guard who exercised influence from behind the scenes even after his retirement.
• Stylistic differences. To outsiders, how an officer wrote his name and rank or referred to his military unit may seem arcane and unimportant. Within the military, however, such details are regulated by rules and tradition, and can be of great significance. The CBS memos contain several stylistic examples at odds with standard Guard procedures, as reflected in authenticated documents.
In memos previously released by the Pentagon or the White House, Killian signed his rank "Lt Col" or "Lt Colonel, TexANG," in a single line after his name without periods. In the CBS memos, the "Lt Colonel" is on the next line, sometimes with a period but without the customary reference to TexANG, for Texas Air National Guard.
An ex-Guard commander, retired Col. Bobby W. Hodges, who CBS originally cited as a key source in authenticating its documents, pointed to discrepancies in military abbreviations as evidence that the CBS memos are forgeries. The Guard, he said, never used the abbreviation "grp" for "group" or "OETR" for an officer evaluation review, as in the CBS documents. The correct terminology, he said, is "gp" and "OER."
In its broadcast last night, CBS News produced a new expert, Bill Glennon, an information technology consultant. He said that IBM electric typewriters in use in 1972 could produce superscripts and proportional spacing similar to those used in the disputed documents.
Any argument to the contrary is "an out-and-out lie," Glennon said in a telephone interview. But Glennon said he is not a document expert, could not vouch for the memos' authenticity and only examined them online because CBS did not give him copies when asked to visit the network's offices.
Thomas Phinney, program manager for fonts for the Adobe company in Seattle, which helped to develop the modern Times New Roman font, disputed Glennon's statement to CBS. He said "fairly extensive testing" had convinced him that the fonts and formatting used in the CBS documents could not have been produced by the most sophisticated IBM typewriters in use in 1972, including the Selectric and the Executive. He said the two systems used fonts of different widths.
'Content analysis'
On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said "60 Minutes" had done a "content analysis" of the memos and found, for example, that the date that Bush was suspended from flying -- Aug. 1, 1972 -- matched information in the documents. He also noted that USA Today had separately obtained another memo from 1972 in which Killian asked to be updated on Bush's flight certification status.
CBS executives have pointed to Matley as their lead expert on whether the memos are genuine, and included him in a "CBS Evening News" defense of the story Friday. Matley said he spent five to eight hours examining the memos. "I knew I could not prove them authentic just from my expertise," he said. "I can't say either way from my expertise, the narrow, narrow little field of my expertise."
In looking at the photocopies, he said, "I really felt we could not definitively say which font this is." But, he said, "I didn't see anything that would definitively tell me these are not authentic."
Asked about Matley's comments, CBS spokeswoman Sandy Genelius said: "In the end, the gist is that it's inconclusive. People are coming down on both sides, which is to be expected when you're dealing with copies of documents."
Questions about the CBS documents have grown to the point that they overshadow the allegations of favorable treatment toward Bush.
Prominent conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh are insisting the documents are forged. New York Times columnist William Safire said yesterday that CBS should agree to an independent investigation. Brent Bozell, president of the Media Research Center, called on the network to apologize, saying: "The CBS story is a hoax and a fraud, and a cheap and sloppy one at that. It boggles the mind that Dan Rather and CBS continue to defend it."
Staff reporters James V. Grimaldi and Mike Allen and researcher Alice Crites contributed to this report.
© 2004 The Washington Post Company |
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John Kerry, R.I.P. (Rot In Paris) |
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Chuck Z Ombie AC2000
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