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K9vietvet
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:31 am Post subject: How many days in hospital for three(3) Purple hearts? |
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Can anybody out there tell me just how many days John Kerry spent in the hospital, or for that matter how many days he may have been "unavailable for duty" due to his "WOUNDS". I am of the opinion that the answer will be "Zero", but sure would be interested to know.
Related question. Who wrote the citations for Kerry's Purple Hearts, Bronze Star and Silver Star? |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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K9vietvet,
As has been pointed out on this forum a number of times, these citations are awarded. If so, then someone else had to award them. You can't do it yourself. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: How many days in hospital for three(3) Purple hearts? |
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| K9vietvet wrote: |
Related question. Who wrote the citations for Kerry's Purple Hearts, Bronze Star and Silver Star? |
K9...while I can't speak to Navy procedure, I am familiar with the Army process. This, generally, was a task assigned to a junior officer and every level of command right through MACV HQ probably had one. In the Army he was called the "Awards & Decorations" (A&D) officer, and it was one of a myriad of administrative duties assigned to junior officers.
There is no "language", per se, for the Purple Hearts. If a wound qualified, the award process was initiated and, AFAIK, the certificate simply states for "injuries received" on such and such a date.
For Bronze Star with "V" device and higher, descriptive language IS incorporated. I have no direct knowledge in Kerry's case, but I'm betting it was written by a junior officer with A&D responsibility, subject to review and approval for submission by Kerry's commanding officer.
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Mon May 17, 2004 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we're asking the wrong question. Who recommended Kerry for the silver star? I've read that Rasmussin (spelling?) recommended a citation for Kerry after Kerrys boat picked him up subsequent to him falling off it.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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CJ
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Boulder, CO
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe someone should see who recomended John O'Neill for his Bronze stars. Since he worked for the Nixon White House, that may be a good place to start. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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At the risk of offending someone, most enlisted men consider bronze stars a little like officer candy. If they just showed up for work, they'd get one at the end of their tour. Forgive my enlisted bias, please.
I do know an enlisted man, however, who received a bronze star months after rotating home. He has no idea who recommended it and didn't really think he deserved it. He definitely wouldn't use it as a qualification for political office.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| According to both the record and the soldier who was saved, Kerry turned the boat arond under heavy fire and returned for the man in the water. He then, while wounded, went to the front of the boat and pulled the man in while still taking heavy fire. The soldier in question wanted Kerry to get a silver, but they gave him a bronze. At the very least you can give Kerry props for saving this man's life. Every statement to the contrary just takes that much more cred away from you. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mikest wrote: | | According to both the record and the soldier who was saved, Kerry turned the boat arond under heavy fire and returned for the man in the water. He then, while wounded, went to the front of the boat and pulled the man in while still taking heavy fire. The soldier in question wanted Kerry to get a silver, but they gave him a bronze. At the very least you can give Kerry props for saving this man's life. Every statement to the contrary just takes that much more cred away from you. |
That's what he was supposed to do. The man in the water fell off Kerry's boat in the first place. Very old Navy tradition. Lose a man overboard, go get him. Deserving of a bronze star? Maybe. You can be sure the man in the water thinks so.
Basically have no quarrel with this medal. Just want to know who recommended the other. I've read lots of medal citations. The silver star looks a little weak.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | At the risk of offending someone, most enlisted men consider bronze stars a little like officer candy. If they just showed up for work, they'd get one at the end of their tour. Forgive my enlisted bias, please.
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Not only no offense taken, but I'll confirm your observation. For a short time, I was the A&D officer for one of my Army units. It was de regeur to submit ALL enlisted personnel for the Army Commendation Medal and ALL officers for the ARCOM plus the Bronze Star. I penned so many of those submissions that I can almost quote the "boilerplate" verbatim.
"(Rank) John Doe's performance of duty reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army"
Those were humourously dubbed the "no clap" awards and were given to ALL who made it through their tours with no negative marks in their service records. |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Those were humourously dubbed the "no clap" awards and were given to ALL who made it through their tours with no negative marks in their service records. |
The bio's I've seen for John O'Neill show he won 2 Bronze Stars and no Silver's. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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So what .
Any info on who recommended Kerry's silver star?
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: |
Not only no offense taken, but I'll confirm your observation. For a short time, I was the A&D officer for one of my Army units. It was de regeur to submit ALL enlisted personnel for the Army Commendation Medal and ALL officers for the ARCOM plus the Bronze Star. I penned so many of those submissions that I can almost quote the "boilerplate" verbatim.
"(Rank) John Doe's performance of duty reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army"
Those were humourously dubbed the "no clap" awards and were given to ALL who made it through their tours with no negative marks in their service records. |
We should perhaps add for the "Woofoos" here that both these awards can be awarded as stated above, doing a good job. (no clap) However, for the Army, both can also be awarded with a "V" device which requires at least being in a hazardous situation  .
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| JN173 wrote: |
We should perhaps add for the "Woofoos" here that both these awards can be awarded as stated above, doing a good job. (no clap) However, for the Army, both can also be awarded with a "V" device which requires at least being in a hazardous situation . |
Correct. As I think I stated in another thread, Bronze Star with "V" device and higher is a considerable step up the awards ladder, and are processed with a subsequent increase in due diligence. That does not, however, preclude the impact that a "medal hunter" or "morale considerations" might have on the process. Nor can the affect of "award inflation" be summarily dismissed. IMO, creative writing skills might often have played an all too important part in the process. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry's PHs |
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Just checked out your site. Good idea and perhaps the webmaster here should start compiling a list of links to reputable source material in this effort.
If I might suggest a slight correction?
You state...
| Quote: | | John Kerry received three Purple Hearts in Vietnam. The first was received after being in country for two weeks. |
While it IS true that PH #1 was awarded for injuries received on 2 Dec 68, it appears the actual award was not granted until almost 3 months later. Here are the dates of the awards, as best as I can determine...
- PH1 Injury 2 Dec 68 Award Date? 28 Feb 69
- PH2 Injury 20 Feb 69 Award Date? 5 Mar 69
- PH3 Injury 13 Mar 69 Award Date? 17 Apr 69
I question the actual award date since the only legible date that I can actually read on the order looks like some sort of processing date stamp added post-order. There is, what appears to be, another day/date receipt above the ones I reference, but those are only legible enough to preclude them being Dec, Jan, or Feb, as it appears that the last character in all three appear to be the letter "r". Nor am I certain that they are actually dates. From what I can see, there is no date in the actual body of the order that I can discern. Perhaps someone else might have better skills in reading them?
So why is this important?
It has already been stated, by Kerry's CO at the time, that he was incredulous (my word) that Kerry would present himself as a qualified recipient of the Purple Heart for the "injury" he received on 2 Dec 68 and told Kerry, if I remember correctly, to "do what you want", or something to that effect.
Looking at the time frame above and the "processing" time it might take for such an award, it seems plausible that Kerry decided to defer his submission to a CONSIDERABLY later date, LONG after the "injury" in question could ONLY be documented by the requisite record of treatment by a "medical officer", which Kerry had so conveniently "documented" in a report prepared, not by the treating physician, but by an administrative assistant.
| Quote: | AR 600-8-22
The following criteria governs award of the Purple Heart in ALL branches of service, not just the United States Army.
2-8, b.2
...the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.
AR 600-8-22 |
Using the "processing" time frame from his two other awards (15 days to 32 days), it seems probable that he presented himself, documents-in-hand, to the A&D officer of Coastal 13, to which he was assigned from 13 Dec 68 thru an unspecified date prior to 22 Jan 69, or Coastal 11, to which he was assigned sometime prior to 22 Jan 69 till his tour termination.
Hopefully this information will be ferreted out and confirmed by documentation. It needs to be determined if the actual submission forms for the award are part of his permanent records. Anyone know fersure?
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Mon May 17, 2004 6:04 am; edited 8 times in total |
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