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publius
Ensign
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 69
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 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | We have a difference of opinion. I believe Kerry did what he did for the advancement of his own personal goals. I believe what he did cost us lives. Difficult to quantify, but still very real.
As for me, well first of all I don't agree that Kerry did any greater thing for his nation than I did. The difference...I did it for thirteen months instead of 4 1/2 and I did not do any harm to any of my comrades in arms when I returned home. |
Of course Kerry in his twenties was ambitious and he still is. This is America for Pete's sake. Do I have to be the one to say this is not Soviet Russia, we think ambition is a great thing in this country? But what, he wanted it too much? Too much desire, education and hard work, in America? Bill Gates was thinking about his future and Steve Jobs about his. So was I. Weren't you? Kerry wanted to be a politician. Of course he kept that in mind. But he'd been to Vietnam and he thought people were dying in a bad war. So he came back and did something about it.
As I understand it most of the vets here are steamed at Kerry because they believe he slandered them as war criminals. I'm not stupid. I can understand that, I don't think you were war criminals and I don't disagree that if you look at what he said that's how it comes across.
But, since this is all about what a man did when he returned from the war, let's just check out the bona fides oif the people doing the criticicizing. I doubt that returning vets were neutral about the war. I'll bet most thought it should be "won" whatever that could have meant and that the White House was mostly responsible for its languishing. Some vets no doubt opposed it. I've never looked up the proportions so I'm guessing.
Okay, there are an awful lot of vets here extremely critical of how Kerry opposed the war. Fine. But Kerry went to work and hard to try to change policy. He says he wanted to end the dying. So just exactly how hard did the vets here work when they returned either to force a policy change to win the war or end it, in order to end the dying of American soldiers? Would I recognize any of the names of Kerry's many critics here because in the 60s and 70s they were active leaders in favor of winning the war? Or ending it? Did anybody here run for Congress, write a book or get on television? Or like practically everybody else who returned from Vietnam did most of you try to pick up the pieces of your life and get on with it, never risking anything in the very hot crucible of deep personal involvement in a political movement designed to change the outcome of the war?
If Kerry was as calculating as you seem to think he was he would have surely known that sticking his neck out was a great political risk, then and in the future. He did what he did for many reasons, no doubt, don't we all? But he says his motive was to end a useless war to save lives. I believe him. If you don't I'd like to hear how far you stuck your political neck out when you came back home.
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BrianC
PO2
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Kerry wanted to be a politician. Of course he kept that in mind. But he'd been to Vietnam and he thought people were dying in a bad war. So he came back and did something about it.
............
So - let's compare that to say, Bob Dole. Oddly, though, Sen. Dole didn't think about it SO much that he brought along an 8mm movie camera to film reenactments of things he'd done in WWII.
And when he came back, he didn't accuse his fellow soldiers of war crimes.
But maybe that was just Kerry's guilty conscience.
And what DID Kerry do about the war when he came back?
He ended up energizing the NVA. General Giap, in his book, credits protesters like Kerry for that, as the NVA were all but ready to quit.
Some legacy. |
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publius
Ensign
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| BrianC wrote: | Kerry wanted to be a politician. Of course he kept that in mind. But he'd been to Vietnam and he thought people were dying in a bad war. So he came back and did something about it.
............
So - let's compare that to say, Bob Dole. Oddly, though, Sen. Dole didn't think about it SO much that he brought along an 8mm movie camera to film reenactments of things he'd done in WWII.
And when he came back, he didn't accuse his fellow soldiers of war crimes.
But maybe that was just Kerry's guilty conscience.
And what DID Kerry do about the war when he came back?
He ended up energizing the NVA. General Giap, in his book, credits protesters like Kerry for that, as the NVA were all but ready to quit.
Some legacy. |
Nobody thought American lives were being wasted in WWII. Well, the anti-war movement was miniscule, so in my mind the comparison is not a good one.
As for war crimes in WWII, I happened to catch a documentary a few nights ago on the Discovery History channel. They were talking about the war in the Paciific and some of the bloody campaigns there. They had vets on camera trying to tell it like it was and several remarked about how they routinely shot wounded Japanese, by the bushel, executed them when they were no threat and were incapable of offense or defense. They had combat camera color film of it. One talked about the common practice of removing gold teeth. Were those war crimes? I know a lot about WWII, including its seamy side, and I'd just rather not think about it anymore. War crime has both a popular and a legal meaning, like the word traitor tossed around here so frequently. I think what those men did was wrong. Would I charge them with war crimes, with violating the Geneva Conventions or the Law of Land Warfare? Not only no, but hell no. It's over, done. I'm content to live with whatever accomodation they made in their own hearts, whether they excused themselves or found themselves guilty. With rare exceptions, same with Vietnam. With the exception of monsters, the nation forgives them all. So do I.
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley |
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publius
Ensign
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BrianC wrote: | | General Giap, in his book, credits protesters like Kerry for that, as the NVA were all but ready to quit. |
I've tried hard to run down the source for this statement and I get a lot of almosts but haven't been able to find it. Can someone quote the exact text and give the specs, please.
In any case, since this reaction from Giap is often raised to charge Kerry with being a traitor because he gave aid and comfort to the enemy, it would be well to actually examine what the Consitution has to say and what the courts, long before Kerry have given us to understand this extremely serious charge.
Maybe I'll try to do an essay on it sometime. I'm not a lawyer. I have read and think I understand the constitutional analysis and case law about treason. I seriously doubt that anyone here labeling John Kerry a traitor has gone to the trouble to find out what that actually means. The irony is that swiftvets is about opposing a guy who used a legally and politically powerful charge, "war criminal" to recklessly broad-brush. "Traitor" has equally potent meaning both politically and legally, and to use it for effect, but not with accuracy and precision, makes the accuser guilty of the same recklessness so despised in Kerry. IMO. John Kerry was no traitor, and in this innocent-until-you're-by-god-proven-guilty-in-a-bare-knuckles-adversarial-process country, a civil right paid for by the blood of patriots, men ought to know better than to be judge and jury. Unless politics trumps principle.
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="publius
Of course Kerry in his twenties was ambitious and he still is. This is America for Pete's sake. Do I have to be the one to say this is not Soviet Russia, we think ambition is a great thing in this country? But what, he wanted it too much?
As I understand it most of the vets here are steamed at Kerry because they believe he slandered them as war criminals. I'm not stupid. I can understand that, I don't think you were war criminals and I don't disagree that if you look at what he said that's how it comes across.
If Kerry was as calculating as you seem to think he was he would have surely known that sticking his neck out was a great political risk, then and in the future. He did what he did for many reasons, no doubt, don't we all? But he says his motive was to end a useless war to save lives. I believe him. If you don't I'd like to hear how far you stuck your political neck out when you came back home.[/quote]
Your comment about the Soviet Union is irrelevant. He would never have been able to do in the Soviet Union what he did here and you know it. It's OK to be ambitious but not to trample on you warrior brothers in the process. So, yes he absolutely wanted it too much!
Just what type of risk was he taking? He was a nobody. He stuck his finger in the wind and decided which way he had to go at that point in time
and decided the way to make a name for himself was to paint all of us, his comrades in arms, as murderers, rapists, arsonists or worse. You can believe he had noble motives if you want, but I won't , and I'm one of the injured parties.
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| publius wrote: | | BrianC wrote: | | General Giap, in his book, credits protesters like Kerry for that, as the NVA were all but ready to quit. |
I've tried hard to run down the source for this statement and I get a lot of almosts but haven't been able to find it. Can someone quote the exact text and give the specs, please.
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It was his 1985 memoirs.
He didn't write a memoir in 1985 you say? Well, that doesn't seem to prevent anyone from quoting from it 
Doug |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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retracted
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| hist/student wrote: | Doug Reese, considering your presence here as a illumination on and into many historical accounts.... From Kerry's doings thirty years ago to his doings last week, I've got another question for you.
I am guessing at some point in your travells you may have read one of Giaps books. I have not. However I have read this quote of his for many , many years and have only recently heard anyone refute its authenticity as do you. I am wondering if maybe in the last thirty years if maybe some folks have gotton the date of publication incorect.
Below is a link for a earlier book by giap where a reviewer mentions the very quote you question having been made in 1985. I note the review is a little recent... casting some credibility issues on that review in and of itself.
How We Won the War
by Vo Nguyen Giap1976
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0916894010/qid=1087043813/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-9886895-4720802?v=glance&s=books
Brilliant,, relavent today as 1976. Must read for Al Quaida, February 13, 2004
Reviewer: A reader from Walkersville, MD United States
Very useful for the insurgent in you. Especially, enlightening is where Giap said that organizations such as "Viet Nam Vets Against the War" (started by John Kerry) gave the North courage and resolve.
What do you think ? |
I think it's bogus.
I haven't read any of Giap's books (or Keith Nolan's, for that matter )
But Ed Moise has, and as a student of the war (to put it mildly -- do a Google on him), he has searched for the book and/or such a quote, and has found neither.
Smart ass that I am, I offered $1,000 on a Rush Limbaugh newsgroup to anyone who could find such a quote and/or book. No takers as of yet.
Doug |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I actually have that book that I just checked out from the library, and as soon as I have the time, I will scan through the book, and find the relevant material, and post it here.
Doug, just because you haven't read it, doesn't make it false.
Woof!
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When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | I think it's bogus. |
On April 30, 2004 the Reuters news service reported:
"Celebrating the 29th anniversary of the fall of Saigon,the North
Vietnamese general who led his forces to victory said Friday he
was grateful to leaders of the US antiwar movement, one of whom
was presidential candidate John Kerry.
'I would like to thank them,' said General Vo Nguyen Giap, now 93.
Giap was speaking during a two-hour interview with foriegn and
domestic media on the 29th anniversary of the fall of Saigon"
Reuters, which first reported Giap's comments, suggested that the
former enemy general was mindful of Kerry's role in leading some of
the highest profile antiwar protests of the entire Vietnam war.
The following web page also documents the tribute hanging in the
"War Remnants Museum" in HCM City showing Comrade Do Muoi, the
General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam, congratulating
John Kerry for his contribution to their political victory over the US
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040604194804799
.
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | I actually have that book that I just checked out from the library, and as soon as I have the time, I will scan through the book, and find the relevant material, and post it here.
Doug, just because you haven't read it, doesn't make it false.
Woof! |
Sure it does
Anyway, here's a quote from someone reviewing the book:
"The objective of this book was the description, in broad terms, of the strategies employed by North Vietnam in 1975 well after withdrawal of U.S. troops. If you are looking for details in tactics employed throughout the campaign, you will not find them here. Nor is this the book in which Gen. Giap supposedly stated that groups such at the Vietnam Veterans Against the War gave the North the resolve to carry on."
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Do Muoi is "congratulating Kerry for his contribution to their political victory over the US"?
Is that what he's doing in that photo? Are you sure? Where did you get this information about the photo? (Not the photo itself, mind you, but what the photo shows)
Doug |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | Where did you get this information about the photo?
(Not the photo itself, mind you, but what the photo shows) |
You are absolutely right.
It is the context of where the display is located that is important and striking.
The web page details this information, including the area of the museum
where it is located and some of the exhibits / tributes around which this
one is also displayed. Perhaps you could drop by the museum (formerly
known as the "War Crimes Museum") and verify for yourself where the
picture is located and that it is displayed as described.
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| rbshirley wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | Where did you get this information about the photo?
(Not the photo itself, mind you, but what the photo shows) |
You are absolutely right.
It is the context of where the display is located that is important and striking.
The web page details this information, including the area of the museum
where it is located and some of the exhibits / tributes around which this
one is also displayed. Perhaps you could drop by the museum (formerly
known as the "War Crimes Museum") and verify for yourself where the
picture is located and that it is displayed as described.
|
I think it's pretty much as advertised. After the original photo came out, someone wisely asked the guy to go back (he was apparently still in-country) and take photos of other people who were "honored" in that room. If you go to the website, you'll see them.
That answered most of my questions. About the only one left is what the sign says over the door leading to that room, assuming there is one.
I've already asked someone to do that for me, but I don't expect some great revelation at this point.
I don't expect to be back there until October, and then it will probably just be Hanoi. But not to worry, if I get back to Saigon I'll be taking a look-see!
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Doug wrote:
| Quote: | | I don't expect to be back there until October, and then it will probably just be Hanoi. But not to worry, if I get back to Saigon I'll be taking a look-see! |
Just curious. Do the locals still call the city Saigon or have they been forced by their northern cousins to use the new name?
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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