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ASPB · Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject:

Old Kayaker wrote:

waltjones · Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:43 pm Post subject: Conduct of the war

ASPB: Well, he did ask. I ignored his questions because they were so irrelevant to his original post. I agree with you , though, that I haven't heard any 'Nam vet say they totally agreed with the way the war was conducted. Hell, even Bush says it was a political war! oldkayaker, perhaps it would be more effective if you opened a new topic on how the war was conducted; I think you'll get more action that way, and this thread won't stretch out forever.

Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

oldkayaker · Ensign Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 52

:...Would you be so kind as to provide some evidence to support your absurd allegation that anyone in this forum or in Swiftvets has "ever" said the war was conducted correctly?..."

I asked for points of agreement from Hoffman/O'Neill group etal....including whether we could agree that the war was not conductedly correctly and...got no answer. From that lack of response, I drew the conclusion that you all think the Vietnam War was conducted correctly. Confused

"...ASPB: Well, he did ask. I ignored his questions because they were so irrelevant to his original post. I agree with you , though, that I haven't heard any 'Nam vet say they totally agreed with the way the war was conducted. Hell, even Bush says it was a political war! oldkayaker, perhaps it would be more effective if you opened a new topic on how the war was conducted; I think you'll get more action that way, and this thread won't stretch out forever...."

Ignore, you did. And perhaps you missed the point that it was how that war was conducted that was the CRUX of Kerry's testimony and part of the cause of FFZ misuse. Its all relevent to the same problem. Lets keep it here and focus, folks. You'll eventually see the light! Cool

Oldkayaker / John

ASPB · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:47 am Post subject: Re: FFZ .... misuse

oldkayaker · Ensign Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 52

Now you got it!

"...The crux of the matter was how the war was conducted by the liberal politicians that you support. Kerry was not wrong about Johnson and other minions of his own party screwing up the war. It was his statements about you, me, everyone else that was in country being "baby killers" BS! BS! BS! Are you really so blind!

Get a GD clue and put the blame where it lies; not on the military but on the liberal administration and the liberal vote grubbing Congress; Not on the guys or their combat commanders who, by the Constitution, had to take direction from a bunch of DEMOCRATIC civilian political opportunists like Kerry. He's just the new generation of the same slime. .."

Kerry was doing just that, putting the blame were it belonged. Not on the soldiers and sailors but on the policy makers. Finally, you have seen the light! Pass it on! Wink

War Dog · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:05 am Post subject:

rbshirley · Founder Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 394

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

waltjones · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:56 am Post subject:

I believe oldkayak is being deliberately obtuse; this is known as disingenuousness. There's also another word for it. He's in denial about what Kerry did, guys, and I for one will ignore him unless he wants to open a new thread on his continually shifting topic. I can't believe he read Kerry's testimony, or he can't recognize lies when he sees them! Like I said before, I wonder how he can live with himself - I mean, c'mon, oldkayak: Kerry's a sociopath; what's your excuse?

Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

War Dog · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:23 pm Post subject:

Those who understand, understand!

Those who do not understand, will never understand!

Now, the question you have to ask yourself is it:

Because they do not want to understand

They only are seeing/believing what they want

They are too stupid to understand

They are lying and haven't read the Kerry Testimony

Part of the above

All of the above!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Very Interesting! :8

Woof!
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"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.

When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit."

rbshirley · Founder Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 394

oldkayaker · Ensign Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 52

Well, well, well...we have some light shining through although there is still lots of darkness.

We can agree that the Vietnam War was fought incorrectly. I think I can see some agreement on that point through all the above.

So, since the war was fought incorrectly, what was the fallout of that? Well, for one thing, too much decision making was placed in the hands of grunts on the ground.

Maybe if we use a little dramatic dialogue, it might help:
What the policy makers in Washington told the soldier or sailor, in effect was, "Come here soldier or sailor, take this list of ROEs, now you decide who is the enemy and you kill him." "We don't want this mess to turn into a WAR, we just want you to stop Communism where you find it in the South, but don't you dare go into the North where Communism rules because that might really trigger a WAR." "Now, we are going to help you by designating areas where if you think the enemy is there, you can fire your weapons and we will clearly mark those areas as Free Fire Zones." "And we have given you additional tools to fight this type of warfare called seach and destroy and harassment and interdiction." "Now, use those tools carefully and remember, only kill Communists."

Yep, those were the marching orders! And Kerry performed under those orders, as did we all did (at least I know I did). The big difference being that Kerry came back to the Washington policy makers and told them that those marching orders were stupid, wrong, and ineffective in their execution. And that when he followed those marching orders, that sometimes he felt like a criminal; but, of course he was not since he and his comrades were only following those orders. And he said that fighting in Vietnam under those marching orders will not resolve anything and only waste money, time and lives, ad nauseam. And of course, he was right!

ASPB · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject:

So, since the war was fought incorrectly, what was the fallout of that? Well, for one thing, too much decision making was placed in the hands of grunts on the ground.

Wrong! No fuzzy logic can cut through the truth Kayaker. Why don't you give it up? It ain't gonna fly or swim other than with teenage liberals that, like you apparently, never took a logic or a history class.
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DougReese · Former Member Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396

waltjones · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:43 pm Post subject:

Maybe it would get a little kinder if oldkayak would address what Kerry actually said. You know the game he's playing, Doug. We provide the quotes by Kerry and he simply won't address the details of Kerry's slander. If you don't see it as such, oldkayak, then we have nothing further to discuss. We have concluded you don't want to see - and Doug, I don't think you want to look at it too closely either. Please see what's next to my name below as to why. Thatisall ....
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.