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PigBoatAndy
Former Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
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 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Hondo is 100% correct
| Quote: | A couple of points re: Kerry’s discharge.
1. The DD214 releasing him from active duty in Jan 1970 is posted on Kerry’s web site. It characterizes his service as “honorable”.
2. An officer is not routinely discharged at the end of his/her obligated service (as a few US Army Reservists have recently found out to their chagrin). An officer has to resign his/her commission. If not, he/she is retained in Inactive Reserve status until he/she is discharged for other reasons. Such reasons are typically age, years of commissioned service, or 2x nonselection for promotion.
3. A reservist is subject to the UCMJ only when serving on active duty and/or performing inactive duty. Kerry never appears to have served on active duty or to have performed inactive duty, such as drills, after Jan 1970. It is thus extremely unlikely to legally impossible for him to have done anything during the period Jan 1970 to Feb 1978 that would have caused the Navy to issue him an administrative discharge of any type other than “honorable”. We may all believe he deserved a punitive discharge for his antiwar activities, but it seems to me unlikely that this actually happened. It’s possible that doing so would have required him to be ordered to active duty and an administrative board convened.
4. The timing of Kerry’s release in 1978 would be consistent with 2x nonselection for promotion to LCDR. If he was unaware he was still being carried on USNR rolls (or just didn’t give a $#!t and never bothered to resign his commission), a discharge for 2x nonselection for promotion in 1978 would have been virtually guaranteed due to nonparticipation. That’s my guess.
Bottom line: without some hard evidence, this line of inquiry is probably not worth pursuing. Kerry was released from active duty in Jan 1970; his service at that time was characterized as honorable. He does not appear to have been subject to the UCMJ after that time. Large bureaucracies, such as the Navy, generally do not go out of their way to make problems or extra work for themselves by doing things out of the ordinary. Trying to "nail" someone who was already effectively out of the Navy for conduct not prosecutable under the UCMJ strikes to me improbable. Had the Navy wanted to do that, they would have ordered Kerry back to active duty for failure to perform USNR duties, or would have at least ordered him to perform drills. Had that happened - and Kerry refused to participate when so ordered - I doubt he'd have been retained in the USNR for 8 more years.
Unless someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, my best guess is that Kerry received an honorable discharge in 1978 after 2x nonselection for promotion for LCDR.
Sure would like to see his whole file, though. |
as is Largebill
| Quote: | Contrary to the claim in the article, a "medical discharge" is not a discharge type in the way an Honorable or General is considered. Honorable or Dishonorable refer to the characterization of service. Medical refers to the reason for separation just as completion of required service etc.
Having said all that, I doubt he had been Dishonorably Discharged. Both a Dishonorable and a BCD (Bad Conduct Discharge) are considered punative discharges and can only be issued by a Courts Martial. There is more to the story but it is not anything as big as a Dishonorable. |
And, as we are learning for officers unless you are DISCHARGED and not just TRANSFERRED TO THE RETIRED LIST you are perpetually subject to recall.
So, that chubby, white haired CAPTAIN poppin' metformin (glucophage) and Lipitor might just be PIG BOAT ANDY  |
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jwbarden
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Orlando, FL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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This is errant nonsense. Kerry received an honorable discharge from his active duty service on 3JAN70. He received an honorable discharge from his inactive reserve service in 1978 due to his non-participation in the driling reserve and his failure of selection to Lieutenant Commander at the required date.
The DD-215 issued in 2001 ammended his earlier DD-214 by adding some service ribbons at Kerry's own request, because he is a cheap rate-grabber. |
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Hammer2
PO2
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 387
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, is this the DD214 you are referring to?
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf
If it is, you better read it carefully. This is not his discharge as an officer, it is his discharge as an enlisted man. His total service time is listed as 9 months 28 days, with 3 months 27 days listed on active duty. His rank is listed as OCUI2 (E-5). None of his medals are listed.
I can't find any other DD214 on his website. Only seperation orders.
Jeez - I hate when I'm a dumbass. Scroll down the page Tim, the other DD214 is there!
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by Hammer2 on Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PigBoatAndy
Former Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:59 am Post subject: |
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HINT - READ THE BUPERSMAN (BUREAU OF NAVAL PERSONNEL MANUAL) WHICH IS NOW PROBABLY CALLED THE NMPERSMAN OR SOMETHING SIMILAR. THAT WILL CUT OUT SOME OF THE SILLIER QUESTIONS
Some of the comments, and suggestions are as off the wall as some of Kerry's testimony.  |
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JimT
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 13
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:08 am Post subject: |
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http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=13125_The_Mystery_Of_Kerrys_Navy_Discharge#comments
| Quote: | teethgrinder 10/13/2004 08:49AM PST
Anybody here familiar with the Special Discharge Review Program initiated in 1977 under Jiminy Carter ? The program was created because Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers in order to please everyone. Then he had to deal with those that said "Hey, wait a minute, what about the people who entered the military and then decided to bug out?" So, Carter issued a directive instructing the military to conduct a special review of less than honorable discharges. And, yes, the program could account for a 1978 discharge date. (But what about all those who served honorably? Congress denied VA benefits to many of those that had upgraded discharges via the SDRP.)
Already done the homework
The SDRP proceedings should result in the publication of a Decisional Document that is publicly accessible here:
Armed Forces Reading Room
1941 Jefferson-David Highway
Crystal Mall #4, Second Floor
Arlington, VA 22202-4508
The DD does not contain the name of the individual, but it should include information regarding date of enlistment, rank, medals, etc.
The records are on microfiche with a primary index using the Docket Number - which you would not know. There are secondary indexes on other microfiches that would, hopefully, make it possible to narrow down the choice of records. You should be prepared with as much 'known' information as possible. The contact person is Ms. Wanda Cooper. |
Can this bee researched in time?
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CAP Marine |
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Nate
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| JimT wrote: | http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=13125_The_Mystery_Of_Kerrys_Navy_Discharge#comments
| Quote: | teethgrinder 10/13/2004 08:49AM PST
Anybody here familiar with the Special Discharge Review Program initiated in 1977 under Jiminy Carter ? The program was created because Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers in order to please everyone. Then he had to deal with those that said "Hey, wait a minute, what about the people who entered the military and then decided to bug out?" So, Carter issued a directive instructing the military to conduct a special review of less than honorable discharges. And, yes, the program could account for a 1978 discharge date. (But what about all those who served honorably? Congress denied VA benefits to many of those that had upgraded discharges via the SDRP.)
Already done the homework
The SDRP proceedings should result in the publication of a Decisional Document that is publicly accessible here:
Armed Forces Reading Room
1941 Jefferson-David Highway
Crystal Mall #4, Second Floor
Arlington, VA 22202-4508
The DD does not contain the name of the individual, but it should include information regarding date of enlistment, rank, medals, etc.
The records are on microfiche with a primary index using the Docket Number - which you would not know. There are secondary indexes on other microfiches that would, hopefully, make it possible to narrow down the choice of records. You should be prepared with as much 'known' information as possible. The contact person is Ms. Wanda Cooper. |
Can this bee researched in time? |
From the DOD Forms Inventory, looks like the relevant forms would be:
DD2067: CASE REPORT AND DIRECTIVE - DISCHARGE REVIEW BOARD STATEMENT OF FINDINGS, CONCLUSIONS & REASONS (Form date: APR 1977
DD2070: DISCHARGE REVIEW PROGRAM (SPECIAL) CASE DATA SHEET, DOD (Form date: JUL 1977)
Bet there's one there on Kerry!!!!! (but as suggested, guess can only trace via Rank, medals, date, etc.)
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U.S. Navy Vet from 50's (Destroyers) |
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greasepaint
Seaman
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 177
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Two questons.
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What happens to an officer that is dropped from the standby reserves
for reason of : two times passed over for promotion, (assume
the officer does not offer to resign) discharged, or retired...?
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(still not sure about this)
Can an officer receive a 'less than honorable' discharge?
If so, who makes that determination?
I am under the impression that an officer can only be
discharged-honorable, or dismissed (dishonable) by the
finding of a military trial. |
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SBD
Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1022
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| PigBoatAndy wrote: | HINT - READ THE BUPERSMAN (BUREAU OF NAVAL PERSONNEL MANUAL) WHICH IS NOW PROBABLY CALLED THE NMPERSMAN OR SOMETHING SIMILAR. THAT WILL CUT OUT SOME OF THE SILLIER QUESTIONS
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Here's what I have found regarding BUPERSMAN 3830300
According to the document below BUPERSMAN 3830300 which is listed on Kerry's Discharge was converted to MILPERSMAN 1920-160
http://66.135.39.97/conver.pdf
MILPERSMAN 1920-160
SEPARATION OF NAVAL RESERVE OFFICERS ON INACTIVE DUTY
Responsible Office NAVPERSCOM (PERS-91)
Governing Directive SECNAVINST 1920.6A
1. Policy and Procedures. Policy and procedures pertaining to this subject are contained in detail in the governing directive.
http://66.135.39.97/1920-1.pdf
Now I am looking for SECNAVINST 1920.6A that was in effect in 1978.
I have found a Directive from 1983 but not 1978.
http://66.135.39.97/secnav.pdf
Here is what the 1983 section says in regards to 1163
Dropping from the Rolls
a. Under sections 1161, 1163 and 6408 of reference (a), the President or the Secretary bf the Navy, depending upon the applicable statute, may drop from the rolls of an Armed Force a Regular or Reserve officer who:
(1) has been absent without authority for at least three months, or
(2) has been sentenced to confinement in a Federal or State penitentiary or correctional institution after having been found guilty of an offense by a court other than a court-martial or other military court, and whose sentence has become final.
b. Action to initiate dropping an officer from the rolls shall normally be undertaken by the Chief of Naval Personnel or the Commandant of the Marine Corps, on a case-by-case basis, after a finding that one or both of the above conditions exist, and that the return of the officer to military control for processing for separation for cause under this instruction will serve no useful purpose.
(1) Dropping from the rolls of officers of Regular components or Reserve officers of flag or general rank will be accomplished by action of the President.
(2) Dropping from the rolls of officers of Reserve components, other than officers of flag grade, will be accomplished by action of the Secretary.
c. Neither a hearing nor a Board is required in order to drop an officer from the rolls. However, the officer so considered shall be notified of such prospective adverse action
(or reasonable efforts shall be made to provide such notification if actual notification cannot be made) and provided the opportunity to respond within 30 days of receipt of
notification. Upon completion of the dropping from the rolls action, notification will be addressed to the officer concerned. No certificate of discharge is issued upon separation by dropping from the rolls since such service is not characterized. For purpose of any Federal benefit based upon characterization of service, dropping from the rolls shall be considered as a discharge under Other Than Honorable conditions. Except for members who are absent without authority, members who are entitled to retired pay may not be dropped from the rolls unless they are ineligible to receive their retired pay under authority of subchapter II, chapter 83, Title 5, United States Code.
9. Special Provisions
a. No officer shall be discharged under Other Than Honorable conditions, pursuant to this instruction, without first being afforded the opportunity to have his or her case heard before a Board of Inquiry.
b. If proceedings by a Board of Inquiry are mandatory in order to release an officer from active duty or discharge, such action will not be taken except upon the approved recommendation of such a board.10.
Limitations
Subject to subparagraph 10c, for a separation because of Substandard an officer who is processed Performance of Duty
(subparagraph 1a of enclosure (3)) or Parenthood (paragraph 6 of enclosure (3)) and who is determined to have established that he or she should be retained on active duty may not again be processed for separation for the same reasons within the one year period beginning on the date of that determination.
b. Subject to subparagraph 10c, an officer who is processed for separation for Misconduct, Moral, or Professional Dereliction (subparagraph 1b of enclosure (3)) or in the
Interest of National Security (subparagraph 1c of enclosure (3)) and who is determined to have established that he or she should be retained on active duty may again be required to show cause for retention at any time.
c. An officer may not again be processed for separation under subparagraphs 10a or b solely because of performance or conduct which was the subject of previous proceedings, unless the findings and recommendations of the board that considered the case are determined to have been obtained by fraud or collusion.
d. Whenever evidence of preservice misconduct is presented to a board, the board may consider it only for the purpose of deciding whether to recommend separation or retention of the respondent. Such evidence shall not be used in determining the recommendation for characterization of service. The board shall affirmatively state in its report that such evidence was considered only for purposes of determining whether it should recommend retention or separation of the officer.
e. Performance or conduct identified more than five years prior to the initiation of processing for separation under paragraph 2 of this enclosure shall not form the basis for processing under this enclosure.
I am sure someone here can make more sense of the above regulations.
SBD |
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