SwiftVets.com

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

ROWELG has made assertions regarding conservative and liberal views of laws and rights and their relative importance. http://www.swiftvets.com/VetsBB/viewtopic.php?p=10506#10506

I believe this is a fair statement of his point of view:

1. For liberals, rights trump law.
2. For conservatives, law trumps rights.

He can correct the above if need be, but based on my reading here is a poll to measure sentiment on the board.
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

I'll sit on the fence for a while an mull this over.

One of the things on my mind is John Kerry. Many people have described him as a traitor for meeting with the enemy in France and then advocating their 9 point "peace" plan.
Now, I am sure that what he did was in violation of the UCMJ (law), but did he still have a right to do it.

Well...let's see. We all have the right to break any law we so desire as long as we are willing to pay the price. As hard core criminals say"if you can't do the time, don't do the crime".

So, is Kerry just an unpunished criminal or do we suspend the "law" for certain people under certain circumstances. Is that what we are talking about when we say "rights trump law". Could Kerry break his oath and the law because, in his opinion, his cause took precedence over the law. Who decides that?

Like I said, I'll mull this over for a while.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

Marine4life · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject:

No question about it, Law prevails. Rights are only ineffect within the confines of law. Such as Freedom of Speech: Law counter is slander, defamation of character etc. Me exercising my rights must not infringe upon yours. It is our right to practice any bonifide religion, however in the Mormon faith that right is restricted by bigamy laws, other religions that use sacrifices are restricted as well. Our rights are a privelege and can be taken away such as voting, gun ownership for committing a crime. Even our citizenship can be revoked for treasonous acts. So the answer is simple Law trumps Rights. Now for the Kerry issue, I don't know how he got away with it for this long, but rest assured he will pay the piper before it's over. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

GoophyDog · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject:

I hate to sound like Clinton but how do you define "rights" ??

In the U.S. our founding fathers outlined the rights of citizens and enforce those rights by enacting laws. Rights can not be infringed without due process of law and those laws are defined by the people which is our/their right.

Laws are created based on the prevailing mores or majority desires of the society that envisioned them. Laws are transitory, subject to change at the will of the people - which is a right. This is the premiss that I disagree with Marine4life. Rights are not restricted so much as surrendered based either on the societal mores of the time or the actions/acceptance of the person or persons effected by them.

So, to attempt to answer the poll. Rights trump law up to the point where those rights have not been restricted or surrendered by choice and enforced by law.

Why the convoluted logic? I get downright tired of hearing folks say their rights are being taken away. Nothing could be more untrue; those rights were surrendered either by a firm choice, or more likely apathy.
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Why ask? Because it needs asking.

coldwarvet · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Law vs. Rights

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

One conservative got it right so far. That's 0.333. Very Happy

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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

ASPB · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:49 pm Post subject:

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

No carpro and ASPB, I'm just a good American who takes the rights and responsibilities of citizenship seriously enough to have looked into it.

People have said a few things. Which view do you find most persuasive? If thinking about Kerry makes your head hurt put that aside and think in more general terms. Which is ascendent rights or laws?

Ask yourself about the nature of the Constitution -- do we get our rights from it? Think about the Bill of Rights, a part of the Constitution. Isn't that the purpose of the Bill of Rights, to give us our rights?
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

Some folks need to get their stories straight. Liberals are frequently bashed here for not knowing anything like conservatives do, and then when one says he knows something on some subject you're ticked because now he thinks he's a know-it-all. Hard to keep up.
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

So, Publius, it is your contention that Kerry is a criminal that at this point is still unpunished?
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

Marine4life · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject:

Goofydog I agree to some extent about the people having the right to write laws. But most law rewrites are from liberal Judges interpreting them to fit their agenda. For instance in most states it is illegal to do sodomy, but most of those states are now allowing gay marriage and or unions. The basic laws of this land are and have been iron clad for years, murder, rape, theft, robbery etc. Most of our laws come directly from the Ten Commandments ie the Bible. Rights are a different topic all together. We have certain rights which are outlined in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The exercise of any right has to be in conjunction with the law. Due process is a right not a law, the 4th ammendment guarantees due process, but law overrides that when it is felt that you pose a threat to the public until and during your trial. You are held in jail such as Scott Peterson even though he is presumed innocent until a jury convicts him. Same with O.J.. Law overrode his right to freedom, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Rights are being trumped every day by law, which is enforced by the Courts. Most laws that are written today are actually to enhance the original laws already ineffect, or diminish them as it is in some cases. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

ASPB · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject:

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

GoophyDog · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:36 pm Post subject:

I'm not going to comment on liberal judges; that they continue to sit on the bench and interpret law is the fault of the people who allow them to do so.

Thomas Jefferson, in drafting the Constitution, I think said it best. (Please pardon my paraphrasing) ...[sic] document does not grant the people rights so much as define the limitations of our government...the people empower government, not the reverse...

On this point I am a staunch conservative - severly limited government.
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Why ask? Because it needs asking.