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RMalloy
PO3
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 280
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 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Doug, you were there for the Silver Star incident, in your opinion
were Kerry's actions sufficient for his recieving this award?
You also say you did not actually see Kerry shoot the Viet Cong, is this
true?
You were only present during that particular incident, not for the rest
of Kerry's duty in Vietnam, true?
Where you at the Dewey Canyon II demonstrations and were you ever
a member of the VVAW during the period from 1969 to 1972?
Have you ever met John Kerry?
boards.historychannel.com/threadedout. jsp?forum=30048&thread=300021012 - 43k
DougReese 8:38AM PDT Aug 16, 2004 (2.1.2)
Re: Friend, I think this non-issue needs to be laid to rest. The truth will hurt everyone!
> You've been duped, big time, Jasper.
>
> For one thing, the term "self-inflicted" itself is a
> gross mirepresentation of what really happened to
> Kerry in 'Nam. In the case of one of the injuries, it
> was as a result of Kerry firing a grenade into an
> enemy cache of food and weapons. That was a
> legitimate target, and destroying such caches is
> considered part of war. Kerry was hit by shrapnel
> from the blast, and that combined with a later arm
> injury he suffered when an enemy mine exploded near
> his boat, justified one of his purple hearts. Now, to
> call the grenade injury "self-inflicted" is really a
> lie. Moreover, an injury received in combat need not
> be from enemy fire - the type of "friendly" fire that
> cause part of Kerry's injuries is well within the
> limits of what constitutes a combat injury eligible
> for a purple heart.
And I might add, since we damn well know that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth won't . . . . that minutes from when Kerry tossed that grenade, one of the Nung soldiers (the guys that Rassmann commanded) was blown to pieces by the VC. I remember his body being taken back to the boat in a poncho, as the body was in such a state that you couldn't just carry it.
So much for no enemy contact. And the sad thing is that the SBVT know very well about this.
Doug
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| RMalloy wrote: | Doug, you were there for the Silver Star incident, in your opinion
were Kerry's actions sufficient for his recieving this award?
You also say you did not actually see Kerry shoot the Viet Cong, is this
true?
You were only present during that particular incident, not for the rest
of Kerry's duty in Vietnam, true?
Where you at the Dewey Canyon II demonstrations and were you ever
a member of the VVAW during the period from 1969 to 1972?
Have you ever met John Kerry?
boards.historychannel.com/threadedout. jsp?forum=30048&thread=300021012 - 43k
DougReese 8:38AM PDT Aug 16, 2004 (2.1.2)
Re: Friend, I think this non-issue needs to be laid to rest. The truth will hurt everyone!
> You've been duped, big time, Jasper.
>
> For one thing, the term "self-inflicted" itself is a
> gross mirepresentation of what really happened to
> Kerry in 'Nam. In the case of one of the injuries, it
> was as a result of Kerry firing a grenade into an
> enemy cache of food and weapons. That was a
> legitimate target, and destroying such caches is
> considered part of war. Kerry was hit by shrapnel
> from the blast, and that combined with a later arm
> injury he suffered when an enemy mine exploded near
> his boat, justified one of his purple hearts. Now, to
> call the grenade injury "self-inflicted" is really a
> lie. Moreover, an injury received in combat need not
> be from enemy fire - the type of "friendly" fire that
> cause part of Kerry's injuries is well within the
> limits of what constitutes a combat injury eligible
> for a purple heart.
And I might add, since we damn well know that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth won't . . . . that minutes from when Kerry tossed that grenade, one of the Nung soldiers (the guys that Rassmann commanded) was blown to pieces by the VC. I remember his body being taken back to the boat in a poncho, as the body was in such a state that you couldn't just carry it.
So much for no enemy contact. And the sad thing is that the SBVT know very well about this.
Doug
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Let me answer all your questions down here, on account of the fact that (OK, I don't weant to hear it) I have yet to get rid of this damn Search Miracle thingy. I know how to deal with it, though, and keeping the post simple is one way. . . . . .apparently my spyware/virus stuff doesn't delete it. Anyway . . .
Was it sufficient for the SS? Apparently the Navy thought so.
Apparently no one actually saw him shoot the guy. One guy was almost next to him, but was looking over in our direcrion, as opposed to Kerry's, at that particular moment.
I lived in the village of Dong Cung as of January. Kerry was already running operations in the area. I can see from records and/or my memory, in addition to stopping by our village from time-to-time, he was at the village and/or we went on operations where his boat was included: Feb 27 (stopped by to discuss what we were going to do Feb 2
Feb 28
Early March (date?) when some Swifts spent the night in the village on "Operation U-Haul" as it was called.
Mar 13 -- the portion of the day that was spent right back up the Dong Cung Canal, I believe a bit further up from where the Feb 28 incident took place.
Dewey Canyon -- No
VVAW -- No
Met Kerry -- Yes. In 1988 for about 30 minutes -- mostly just the two of us. A few years later for a meet & greet kind of thing. Shook his hand "Hi, how are you?" That's it.
And yes, that's a quote from me, from somewhere. We were back along the boats, next to the canal. Kerry, Rassmann, the Nungs, Thurlow(?) and others were back in there -- inland/off the canal a bit.
Doug |
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RMalloy
PO3
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Doug, for answering my post.
Going back to the Silver Star for Kerry. Regardless of how the Navy
felt about Kerry's actions that day, what is your opinion of them?
Was his contribution more than others, in your judgement, on that
particular date and time? |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
Was it sufficient for the SS? Apparently the Navy thought so.
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You do like playing games, don't you Doug? And you DO enjoy taking offense when people ask you questions.
And I have a question about your recall of Kerry's story concerning this incident. Let me repeat for you what it is that YOU said, as I read it, and paraphrased:
| Quote: |
Kerry personally told you, and you are faithfully reporting what he said as best you can recall today, that after it was over, as you were standing near the corpse, which seemed perhaps almost to be 'playing dead' it was that bloodless, although you did see some blood (?), that Belodeau had attempted to fire but that danged gun jammed again - didn't break apart as it supposedly would on 13 MAR. But it jammed, though not before he got off a few rounds. Even so, you yourself didn't see any evidence of entry wounds from that weapon, however, as the 'kid' lay there dead. Or did you? Kerry said to you that Short didn't fire a shot. He never got a look at the 'kid', despite all the early reports about the 50's, which I think were from Kerry's books and Kerry's site. But correct me if I'm wrong. And Kerry was able to chase him down, because Kerry ran just that fast I guess, and shot him - in the back. No? But see, now it wouldn't matter so much that he was shot in the back, because you say he hadn't been shot, at all (at least that one could see).
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Now, let me ask, again - and you're going to get fuming mad for my asking, I understand - do you agree with the wording here? Was this John Kerry's story, that very moment, that day, to you personally, standing there over the body? Was this just what you saw, or did not see? Can you clarify and answer the questions posed - or must we wait another two weeks or so for your memory to return to you when it's more politically convenient. And please, you'll have to forgive me for being cynical. But let's remember your history, and yes YOUR posturing, in this one, single thread, after all.
If I missed something, here, please correct me. And in fact, I would just like to suggest to you, yet again, that there is no percentage in 'spin', at this point. You should be honest. And there's no reason not to be. Kerry is separating from Bush in the polls. Kerry is dropping like a stone. The number of 'battleground' states is dwindling. It's a sea of GOP out there, on the electoral map. There's no need to wait two weeks. But . . you'll do as you will. I know that.
And I'd add, again - Doug. Don't stay mad. Besides, I really could care less if you are. I've said to you - many times - I just want you to tell the truth, honestly, as you actually remember it. You may be wrong. But you'd be honestly wrong. That's fine. 'Spin' . . is not. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| USAF66-70 wrote: | If you truly have doubts, you should call him:
Hey Doug, too bad you don’t do tours to Okinawa
Fred H. |
Hey Fred. Too bad your friend is so suspicious. There wouldn't be 25 pages, here, as he complains if he'd simply been upfront and answered some very simple questions when they were asked. Am I right?
Let's just keep it honest, here. |
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RMalloy
PO3
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Doug wrote:
| Quote: | | And I might add, since we damn well know that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth won't . . . . that minutes from when Kerry tossed that grenade, one of the Nung soldiers (the guys that Rassmann commanded) was blown to pieces by the VC. I remember his body being taken back to the boat in a poncho, as the body was in such a state that you couldn't just carry it. |
Doug you said that on March 13 you were close to where the Feb 28
incident happened. I selected an excerpt from your post about Kerry's
grenade toss.
Where you around when Kerry says he came to take the Nung soldier's
body who had been killed, is this the same one you are referring to?
You also mention "minutes from when Kerry tossed that grenade",
(are you referring to when Kerry recieved his grenade-rice pellets wounds) where you present at that time also?
Your post seems to imply you were there during the first part of the
Third Purple Heart-Bronze Medal Day for Kerry.
Thanks |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| RMalloy wrote: | Thanks, Doug, for answering my post.
Going back to the Silver Star for Kerry. Regardless of how the Navy
felt about Kerry's actions that day, what is your opinion of them?
Was his contribution more than others, in your judgement, on that
particular date and time? |
I think it is difficult to say who "contributed more" that day. Was his contribution significant? Yes.
Was it more significant that mine? Hell yes.
They forgot to put everything in Unfit for Command regarding my circumstances when I stepped off the boat. I don't know why, as SBVT paid that private investigator that I spoke to good money for that report on what I did/saw that day.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| RMalloy wrote: | Doug wrote:
| Quote: | | And I might add, since we damn well know that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth won't . . . . that minutes from when Kerry tossed that grenade, one of the Nung soldiers (the guys that Rassmann commanded) was blown to pieces by the VC. I remember his body being taken back to the boat in a poncho, as the body was in such a state that you couldn't just carry it. |
Doug you said that on March 13 you were close to where the Feb 28
incident happened. I selected an excerpt from your post about Kerry's
grenade toss.
Where you around when Kerry says he came to take the Nung soldier's
body who had been killed, is this the same one you are referring to?
You also mention "minutes from when Kerry tossed that grenade",
(are you referring to when Kerry recieved his grenade-rice pellets wounds) where you present at that time also?
Your post seems to imply you were there during the first part of the
Third Purple Heart-Bronze Medal Day for Kerry.
Thanks |
Yes, I was. The same three advisors were with the Swifts that day -- Rassmann and the Nungs also. Rassmann was right there (on the ground) with kerry. We were back near the boats, along the canal.
I repeated that in a few posts back -- a reply to RMallory. It was hard to make out though, as I did a list of answers all together at the bottom of my reply. He/she is probably the only one who took the time to go back and forth (up and down) to connect the answers with the questions.
Doug |
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Theresa Alwood
Rear Admiral
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 631
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Please dont let the trolls get to you. Some people come on this board just to incite us and get our blood boiling...and yes it has happened to me also. But try to remember on thing...some of the trolls support and want to change your mind about John Kerry. They are not looking for the truth...some think they know "too much" and we know "too little"....but I know what I know and I believe what I believe...John Kerry is UNFIT FOR COMMAND of not only our Armed Forces, but unfit to command any thing. He has proven what a "man" he is. I do not and will not respect anyone who can not pick a side and stay with it. I know my core belief's are just that...they do not waiver; they do not change; they are who I am. John Kerry's core belief changes each day depending on who he has to speak of. He is a false person; he is a chronic liar, and he has no scrupples at all when he sink to include Michael Moore attend the DNC and yet come out slam the swiftvets....what kind of man is John Kerry...well I would call him more of a rat.
_________________
Born to raise a little hell! |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
I repeated that in a few posts back -- a reply to RMallory. It was hard to make out though, as I did a list of answers all together at the bottom of my reply. He/she is probably the only one who took the time to go back and forth (up and down) to connect the answers with the questions.
Doug |
Well, good that someone did, Doug. Lord knows, you haven't done that.
So what about it? Let me simplify this, and you tell me that you still disagree with the Swifties - and . . why:
- Kerry has removed himself from the battle. The 23 joins a charge following an RPG attack.
- You find your way up the shore after the events.
- And you are regaled with a story by John Kerry.
- A single gunman who presumeably had fired remained on shore
- In beaching, the 94's 50 caliber was removed as a weapon. You have no opinion on whether this was a good tactic.
- Belodeau, the M60 forward gunner, got off a few rounds before his weapon jammed, again according to Kerry.
- Even if the gunman came into Short's view, he fired not a shot from the 50 caliber, according to Kerry.
- Kerry dashed off the boat as Belodeau ceased firing.
- Kerry chased down the gunman, who may have been armed - which you failed to notice - and shot him in the back.
- There may or may not have been any wounds from the M60 - you can't recall seeing such.
- The gunman appeared to be dead, but you could barely discern the wound - and so, therefore, whether the exit wound was in the front or back. And you can't remember now.
So let me ask you. Why do you call John O'Neill names? Other than your report that Kerry contradicted himself, apparently, on 50 caliber in later tales of his exploits, or that Short did so, you have here corroboration of a single gunman, fleeing for his life, and shot in the back by Kerry. Your 'spin' is essentially that the fleeing gunman was not wounded. Therefore that somehow justifies Kerry shooting him in the back. But he was justified in doing so, anyway. The question was whether - is that particularly something for which a soldier is given the Silver Star? and again, particularly, since he appears to have been the only recipient over the course of many missions.
Hide, don't hide. Answer, don't answer. But you seem to have VERY LITTLE basis for denigrating John O'Neill in the way that you do. You have no real factual disagreement. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Doug, I appreciate your saying how you came to believe the Vietnamese you spoke to were actually there. Since it jives with your own personal recollection, I accept your belief they were in fact there.
However, I'd like to know what made ABC believe they were the actual VC involved, something we may never know.
Additionally, you say something to the effect that they were a small band and probably not involved in many firefights. I have a more difficult time with that. It's also been said that not far away, the area was a hotbed of VC activity. Although you wouldn't know the answer, so I am not posing the question to you directly, I still wonder just what made this particular incident stand out in their minds 34 years later?
From the Nightline transcript,
| Quote: | They had recently been reinforced by a 12-man unit, supplied with small arms and one B-40 rocket launcher.
According to Vo, there were at least 20 Viet Cong soldiers at Nha Vi there that day. "There were 12 soldiers from the provincial level and eight from the district level," he said. |
Earlier, Doug you said there were about 15 guys per boat. 3 Boats makes that about 45 plus the Swift Boat crews. 12 to 20 VC against maybe 55 to 60 Army and Navy guys hardly seems a “numerically superior force” to me.
| Quote: | Villagers say this is what they saw:
"Firing from over here. Firing from over there. Firing from the boat," Vo Thi Vi told "Nightline."
She was only a couple hundred yards away when a Swift boat turned and approached the shore, she said, adding that the boat was unleashing a barrage of gunfire as it approached. |
By her account, she only remembers one boat turning and approaching the shore. In all, there were three boats and I believe you said the one you were on beached first. Even in the heat of battle, how could she miss two other boats that size?
| Quote: | "I ran," she recalled, "Running fast. … And the Americans came from down there, yelling 'Attack, Attack!' And we ran."
Her husband, Tam, said the man who fired the B-40 rocket was hit in this barrage of gunfire. Then, he said, "he ran about 18 meters before he died, falling dead."
He was one of the 12 reinforcements sent to the village by provincial headquarters, and after he died, the firefight continued, according to Tam.
"When the firing started, Ba Thanh was killed," Tam said. "And I led Ba Thanh's comrades, the whole unit, to fight back. And we ran around the back and fought the Americans from behind. We worked with the city soldiers to fire on the American boats." |
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2004/story?id=166434&page=1
Now, from Mr. Rood’s account, we read;
| Quote: | With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation. |
http://www.factcheck.org/MiscReports.aspx@docID=245.html
According to the VCs account, there was still considerable firing going. Yet, it appears Kerry nonchalantly returned, waving the captured B-40, taking time to report that it was he who killed the VC, when the VC so honored by ABC said he fell dead after running a short distance, wounded.
Since I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but I know it sounds incredibly different than anything I saw from the air in the Central Highlands. I guess I have a problem seeing Kerry, the hero, nonchanlantly walking around with a captured B-40 in the middle of a firefight.
I also have a problem with 20 VC firing on 3 boats, even after they beached, and the boats not being shot full of holes. Even they admit they didn't hit any of the boats, but I fail to see how they missed with as much firing as they say was going on.
From what I've read, I have every reason to believe that you acted honorably that day and throughout your tour. I believe you acted properly and performed your duty. I cannot see where John Kerry did, though. All the varied accounts just don't add up to a Silver Star for him and him alone.
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Clark County Conservative |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129590,00.html
| Quote: | WALLACE: OK.
Let's switch to you, Mr. Hurley. Senator Kerry has repeatedly said that he was sitting on a gun boat five miles inside Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968, being shot at, while the president denied that there were any U.S. troops there.
In a 1986 Senate speech, Kerry had this to say: "I have that memory, which is seared, seared in me."
Simple question: What proof do you have that John Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968?
JOHN HURLEY, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, VETERANS FOR KERRY: I think, Chris, that what is seen in John Kerry's mind is that he was under fire in Cambodia. On Christmas Eve 1968, John Kerry, PCF 44, his first command over there, was on patrol up near the Cambodian border. They did come under fire that night. An old man was killed that night. They came under fire three times that night.
It's a watery area. There's no sign that says, "Welcome to Cambodia." They were in that vicinity. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether or not they were in Cambodia that night, but they were near Cambodia on Christmas Eve.
...
But on Christmas Eve, he was on the 44 boat. They were near the Cambodian border. They may or may not have crossed over.
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55 miles from Cambodia = "near/on/over(??) the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve"
DEJA VU?? |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| sevry wrote: |
So let me ask you. Why do you call John O'Neill names? |
I'm not much of a name caller. Then again, John O'Neill goes around on talk shows and says I'm one of the "rare people for Kerry" and misrepresents me in a book (he didn't quite put all of what I told his private investigator) which in itself denigrates my service and the service of many others in his attempt to smear someone else.
So if I occasionally (and that's what it is, at most) seem to be a bit displeased, well, that's too bad.
| sevry wrote: |
Other than your report that Kerry contradicted himself, apparently, on 50 caliber in later tales of his exploits, or that Short did so, you have here corroboration of a single gunman, fleeing for his life, and shot in the back by Kerry. |
That's your spin on what I said, others said, etc. It's exactly what people have been doing throughout . . . . . .
I only know of one person who has said he recalled seeing a killing wound on that guy, and it wasn't in the back. I only vaguely recall seeing a leg wound, nothing else, other than that he wasn't all shot-up, bloody, etc.
Doug |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | sevry wrote: |
So let me ask you. Why do you call John O'Neill names? |
I'm not much of a name caller. Then again, John O'Neill goes around on talk shows and says I'm one of the "rare people for Kerry" and misrepresents me in a book (he didn't quite put all of what I told his private investigator) which in itself denigrates my service and the service of many others in his attempt to smear someone else.
So if I occasionally (and that's what it is, at most) seem to be a bit displeased, well, that's too bad.
| sevry wrote: |
Other than your report that Kerry contradicted himself, apparently, on 50 caliber in later tales of his exploits, or that Short did so, you have here corroboration of a single gunman, fleeing for his life, and shot in the back by Kerry. |
That's your spin on what I said, others said, etc. It's exactly what people have been doing throughout . . . . . .
I only know of one person who has said he recalled seeing a killing wound on that guy, and it wasn't in the back. I only vaguely recall seeing a leg wound, nothing else, other than that he wasn't all shot-up, bloody, etc.
Doug |
Mr. Reese, from what I have read in the book I would hardly call it "denigrating" your service, in fact the book (pg. 82-85 or so) said something along the lines of you deserving a higher medal than you received compared to the Silver Star John Kerry received. And from what I have read on your post, that seems to be true, you did do essentially more heroic things in the face of the enemy than John Kerry on Feb. 28th. As far as the whole private investigator deal, I obviously am not able to speak on this. |
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USAF66-70
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Sevry: | Quote: | | Hey Fred. Too bad your friend is so suspicious. There wouldn't be 25 pages, here, as he complains if he'd simply been upfront and answered some very simple questions when they were asked. Am I right? |
Sevry: I think Kerry folk call it nuance. Doug’s bottom line, using his words, seems to be: “If they want to start putting all those Navy citations under the same level of scrutiny as Kerry's is being subjected to, that's fine with me ... but until then, lay off.”
An unwarranted request, IMHO, considering Kerry’s false accusations, his opportunism, and his “bring it on” arrogance; not to mention Kerry’s penchant for sewing discord among the brethren (and Kerry’s refusal to sign F180).
I’d hoped we could draw brother Doug back from the dark side.
Far as I can tell, O’Neill’s conclusion that many Vietnam vets and Swiftees don’t consider this action to be “the stuff of which medals of any kind are awarded,” is still the right one.
Last edited by USAF66-70 on Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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