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KERRY EXCOMMUNICATED FROM CATHOLIC CHURCH???
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tony54
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerry is always a step ahead of you guys.
He knew he was going to be ex-communicated by the Catholic Church
so he joined a new church in Ohio just this past weekend, you may have seen him on TV singing along with the other worshippers.
I thought it was pretty kool!
But he looked like a living, breathing "oreo cookie" being the only
white boy there.
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SooZQ
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerry wouldn't be able to join that
church. He doesn't have the same
rythm. White boy can't clap. Shocked

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wednesdaychild
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have mentioned to others on this board i was raised a Jehovah's witness. while it and the catholic church have little in common doctrine wise, they do have the policey of excommunication or as Jehovah's witness's call it disfellowshipping. They use it a lot. A JWS can disfellowshipped for having a abortion and a host of other things. If u vote, join the military, or take a blood transfusion, u are doing similar to what the catholic's say above, declaring by your actions you are not a jehovah's witness. In that case it is called disassociation, a legal manauever to avoid lawsuits.
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shooter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I have a question:

My wife was "excommunicated" because she got a divorce. She can still go to mass, but cannot receive communion. How can all these politicians carry on like it has no effect on them? Does that rule still apply?

She was told that she would have to have her 1st marriage annulled in order to be accepted back into the church with full membership...

Just wondering.....
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Aristotle The Hun
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard Burton plays the title role in the movie "Becket", a cinema biography of the life of Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury. There is a powerful scene in the movie that is an excommunication ritual. The language of the scene is authentic and Richard Burton can be really frightening as he condemns a soul to hell for eternity.

Excommunication is serious and Richard Burton gave a dramatic power to the ceremony that can make Catholics squirm in their seats. Richard Burton is now probably residing where Kerry is going soon. Maybe Burton can recreate the scene for Kerry.

Could Burton have been saved from hell because he was married to Liz Taylor and God felt sorry for him?

Sam
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Mary Ann Parker
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: If She Really Loved Him She Would Have Married Someone Else! Reply with quote

If She Really Loved Him She Would Have Married Someone Else!!

That was a great movie.
Didn't his determination to have his way remind of
David and Bathsheba??
Sent that man off to war he did.
Where were you??
Did you do the deadline??

Make it a tell us now kinda day.
Mary Ann Parker


Last edited by Mary Ann Parker on Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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twicearound
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW UPDATE VATICAN DENIAL

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm
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JimRobson
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to comment on a couple of things.

First, excommunication is not the same as banishment to hell. The Church takes no opinion on the state of ones soul. We no longer even have an opinion on the state of Judas Ascariot's soul, even though he committed suicide. The concept is that only God is in a position to know the state of repentance at the last moment of life. I can't tell you which part of cannon law would cover that or which encyclical, but it also makes sense. Some of my over zealous nuns in Parochial school were not familiar with this concept, but thank God we also don't have to decide where they reside in the afterlife.

Secondly, divorce is not grounds for excommunication. It's the re-marrying that causes the problem. The concept here is that a valid marriage is broken only by death of one of the partners. This means that the partner who re-marries is a bigamist. There is a way out of even this situation. Its called annulment. There may have been conditions prior to the marriage, which prevented one or both the parties from making a valid commitment to the other. Terminal stupidity is one of my favorites. Another, for example, could be a pre-existing hidden intent of one of the parties to prevent childbirth. Personally I went with the former and got out of my first (non-)marriage. It’s more complicated than that but I’ve tried to simplify it. It took me 22 pages of history to convince the Tribunal of Cannon Lawyers of that (pre-)existing condition.

In the case of John Kerry, since he continues to persist in his active approval of abortion, he is probably already ex-communicated and doesn’t even know it. If he does go to confession, his confessor should refuse absolution, since he is not repentant. Repentance means not to simply be sorry for ones sins, but to make a committment to change. I understand his regular parish is run by the Paulist Fathers, and although I haven’t vetted this out, I understand that they are very liberal, so he may be getting away with murder. (Pun intended) But you can't fool God.
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Aristotle The Hun
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3865.html

RATHER THAN START A NEW TOPIC.

Will the Silence of U.S. Catholic Bishops Help Elect John Kerry?
by Barbara Kralis
19 October 2004
Sixty million U.S. Catholic laity is scandalized and confused by the refusal of most Bishops to dutifully govern and correct pro-abortion candidates.
The Democrat Presidential candidate, John Kerry, proclaimed recently to all Americans that he is a ‘faithful Catholic’ in good standing, yet promised that if elected:
I will not overturn Roe v. Wade; I will not appoint judges hostile to 'choice;' I will allow poor women to have free abortions; I will never outlaw abortion; I will increase American taxpayer's dollars on population control efforts around the world.i
In other words, this pro-abortion legislator has set himself outside of the Catholic faith and has incurred, according to canon law 1398, a common excommunication, latæ sententiæ, a censure incurred by the very fact of committing a crime.

Yet, ironically, a majority of U.S. Catholic Bishops is unwilling to discipline legislators who support procured abortion from the sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist in most of the nation’s Catholic dioceses. Sixty million U.S. Catholic laity is scandalized and confused by the refusal of most Bishops to dutifully govern and correct.

World media are reporting with amusement individual Bishops' reaction. Currently, 2 Archbishops and 10 Bishops have stated publicly they would obey the Church’s Divine Law and deny the Sacrament of the Eucharist to legislators who support procured abortion.ii

The rest of the total 365 U.S. Bishops, 46 U.S. Archbishops, and 12 U.S. Cardinals, including the remaining 184 of the 196 diocesan Bishop heads, have made no such statement.iii In fact, many Bishops have spoken wrongly against the denial of Holy Communion to anyone, at anytime, for any reason.

Is the silence of this majority of Bishops sending a loud, clear message to all Americans that being pro-abortion is not a grave offense against God?

The Code of Canon Law n. 1369 instructs all Bishops: "A person is to be punished with a just penalty who gravely harms public morals." Who could refute the fact that for years Senator Kerry, Senator Kennedy and over 500 pro-abortion ‘Catholic’ U.S. politicians have participated in abortion by writing, endorsing, encouraging, and passing pro-abortion and pro-homosexual legislation? Canon 915 specifically prohibits persons receiving the Eucharist who obstinately persist in their grave manifest sins. This is a no-brainer.

In fact, Senator Kerry’s pro-abortion record is so strong; he is the first presidential candidate (including Clinton and Gore) to be endorsed by the evil Planned Parenthood abortion group.

Senator Kerry supports human cloning, favors the creation and destruction of human embryos for ‘research,’ and has voted repeatedly against a federal ban on ‘partial birth abortion.’

This is from an interview ‘Catholic’ candidate John Kerry gave the Telegraph Herald of Dubuque, Iowa, picked up in a secondary report by the Washington Post:
I can't take my Catholic belief, my article of faith, and legislate it on a Protestant or a Jew or an atheist . . . who doesn't share it. We have separation of church and state in the United States of America.
Does not the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's note, "Doctrinal Note on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life" carry any authority with American Bishops and clergy? It said that ‘lawmaking bodies have a grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that attacks human life’ (emphasis in the original).iv

Why, as it has been recently revealed by CWNews, have three of the twelve prominent members of the USCCB ‘Review Board’ flagrantly and traitorously disobeyed Church teachings and supported pro-abortion Kerry’s presidential campaign financially?v

As Senator John Kerry travels throughout the U.S. in his bid for the Democratic nomination for the Presidency, this pro-abortion, heretical 'Catholic' legislator receives sacrilegious Holy Communions wherever and whenever he attends the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Why?

Each Sunday, pro-abortion Senator Kerry enters a different U.S. parish, approaches the altar, receiving the Eucharist while obstinately refusing to obey the Church's clearly defined laws against his unlawful reception of Communion. Every parish receives advance notice of Kerry's clamorous arrival, yet, in parish after parish, both ‘Ministers of Holy Communion’ (pastors, priests, deacons) and ‘Extra-ordinary ministers of Holy Community’ (laymen) willfully give Kerry sacrilegious Communions.

The Catechism teaches that all clergy who administer the Sacrament of the Eucharist to manifest, obstinate, persistent sinners also participate in this grave cardinal sin of sacrilege (CCC, n.1755). Is it not clear they must deny these pro-abortion politicians the Eucharist?

In fact, canon 915 places the responsibility on the minister -- 'ne admittantur' -- who, in some canonists' opinion, could be punished themselves according to canon 1389 §2, should he unlawfully administer the sacrament with the consequent danger of scandal for the rest of the faithful. Canon 1339 prescribes the possibility of punishing any person who causes grave scandal by any violation of a divine or ecclesiastical law.

Some have suggested that the silence of most of the Bishops is because U.S. clergy overwhelmingly vote as Democrats and do not want to offend their leaders. A recent poll suggested this was the case, at least, in the diocese of Chicago.

According to an exclusive Illinois Leader analysisvi of the voting habits of the Chicago Archdiocese's voting Catholic priests, more than 75% of them sided with Democrats in the March 2002 primary election. Consequently, many U.S. Catholics are receiving a message from many priests and Bishops, however subtle, that the Church wishes them to vote for the Democrat Party, the official abortion party in America. Is this why many of our pulpits are silent on the infallible Church teachings regarding morals and faith, teachings that definitely offend Democrats?

Could another reason be U.S. Bishops fear losing more money donated in weekly offertory collections? Do some U.S. Bishops fear offending powerful Democrat parishioners?

Dear Bishops, you are the leaders and shepherds of our church; we stand beside you in deepest prayer and respect. Please stop the scandal and sacrilege of the Eucharist, we pray.

©Barbara Kralis 2004, All Rights Reserved.
Endnotes
i. 2004 Transcript of John Kerry’s address at the January 21, 2003 NARAL Dinner: http://www.bankofknowledge.net/2004/archives/000135.html
Cf. “Kerry Sets Pro-abortion Litmus Test for Judges,” by NewsMax.com Wires, 6/26/04; also, “A Few Questions for the Presidential Candidates,” by Radley Balko, 8/1/04, FoxNews.com; Cf. l994 Congressional Record.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127374,00.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/26/180901.shtml

ii. The distinguished list of Bishops to date (10/7/04) is: Archbishop Raymond L Burke of St. Louis, MO; Archbishop John F. Donoghue Archbishop of Atlanta, GA; Bishop Fabian W. Bruskewitz of Lincoln NE; Bishop Henry Rene Gracida, Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi, TX; Bishop Robert F. Vasa, Baker, OR; Bishop Joseph Galante of Camden, NJ; Bishop John M. Smith of Trenton, NJ; Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs, CO; Bishop Gerald Gettelfinger of Evansville, IN; Bishop Robert J. Baker Bishop of Charleston, SC; Bishop Peter J. Jugis Bishop of Charlotte, NC;; Bishop John Y. Yanta, Bishop of Amarillo, TX.

iii. Cf. 2004 General Summary, ‘The Official Catholic Directory, 2004,’ pg. 2051, published annually by P.J. Kenedy and Sons. This number includes current governing Bishops and living Bishops Emeritus.

iv. Cf. § 2, n.4: Link

v. “The Forum: 3 members of Review Board support Kerry,” special to Catholic World News, 10/6/04:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=32578

vi. “Illinois Leader Study: Chicagoland Catholic Priests vote 4 to 1 Democrat,” by ‘The Leader-Chicago Bureau,’ 11/01/02: http://www.illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=2776
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truthserum
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was brought up Catholic and you don't have to have any official declaration of excommunication. Kerry was unofficially excommunicated the minute he declared himself pro abortion. You can't confess this to a priest and turn around and still profess pro abortion. If you confess to a priest that you are pro abortion he will tell you that you are excommunicated. From there you cannot receive communion. It does not mean you can't attend Catholic church services. You can continue to do so, but cannot receive the sacraments including a Catholic burial. As in suicide you cannot receive a Catholic burial.

The pro abortion stance Kerry takes will have an effect on the Catholic vote. If I knew nothing else about Kerry, but this, I would not vote for him being strongly anti abortion myself given the concept I was brought up believing, that life begins at conception.

It used to be that divorce was excommunication, but now Catholics can get this problem fixed by filing for annulment. I believe Kerry did this with his first wife, when he saw a better future with a woman who had bigger bucks than the first wife. I have no idea what reason he gave because usually annulment is based upon a woman refusing to birth children. I believe he has children from his first wife.
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truthserum
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I also wanted to reply to "do some bishops fear going against a democratic candidate". Most certainly.

When John Kennedy ran for president he had been married before Jackie, but that marriage had been annulled quietly bya priest. The priests are very much in the pocket of most democratic politicians. Very large donations are given to the Catholic church by democratic politicians over the years and traditionally Catholics have been democrats. This, however, is changing, especially in light of the democratic party going so far to the left with abortion and gay marriage.
The bishops and priests are still trying to hang onto the large donations probably. It's all about money.
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Hondo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks,

From the link above, here is what seems to be the current Vatican position on the matter:

Quote:
Vatican officials contacted by CNS Oct. 19 said they did not agree with Father Cole's conclusion that Kerry has incurred excommunication.

"You can incur excommunication 'latae sententiae' (automatically) only if you procure or perform an abortion," one said.

I repeat: to my knowledge, the Vatican has NOT weighed in on the issue of whether or not a Catholic public figure is required to oppose abortion (or contraception - which the Church also opposes - for that matter) as an article of faith. Until the Church declares this formally - either in the form of a Papal Encyclical or other Ex Cathedra declaration on the matter - than the Church does not have a Doctrinal position on this matter.

Or, more simply: current Church doctrine is that procuring or performing an abortion is grounds for latae sententiae excommunication. The Church regards abortion as a moral evil. However, the Church has no doctrinal position on whether or not a Catholic politician must publicly oppose and act to end abortion where it is currently legal.

In case anyone missed it, the URL for the article from which the above quote is taken is http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm

No, I'm not defending Kerry. His position is logically inconsistent and, IMO, craven. If he's a practicing Catholic, he should have the cojones to speak out against abortion - assuming, of course, he does find it morally objectionable. Very obviously, he is either too fearful losing votes to publicly speak out, or doesn't find abortion to be a moral problem. I'd bet on the first being the case.
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minnie presley
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:56 pm    Post subject: catholic Reply with quote

as a catholic I am so disgusted with the catholic church as a whole, for not taking a stand against this slimball, if ever there were two familes who should be banned from the church its the kennedys and kerry, they have been so quite in this election I am seriously thinking of changing my religion, and I am a strong catholic,
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minnie presley
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: excommunication Reply with quote

shooter, your wife can ask for a pastoral forgivness which would allow her to receive communion, I agree this is so double standard, kennedys all receive communion especially teddy, who is divorced and a murderer, this is where the church makes the rules to accommodate these people, I am very disgruntled with the church at this time
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard no formal announcement from the Vatican, nor have I heard the MSM carrying this on the stations. I have not even seen this in any newspapers. This is my first view and knowlege of this at Swifties.

That being said, if this is true, then the Catholic vote will go to Bush which is wonderful since his values reflect those of all Christians that are moral Christians.

As for the liberal Christians, they probably will not care either way and will vote as they choose.
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