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publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

Gooph, paraphrasing is fine. The Constitution *is* about limiting the power of government and Jefferson said so in about a million ways. I'll share some of my favorite quotes from him on that subject in a bit. They're right here.

The Constitution not granting people their rights, though, is not Jeffersonian.

I'm a little disappointed we only have six votes so far. Let's hope we pick up some more this evening. Fair variety in the votes, eh?
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

BrianC · PO2 Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 364

ASPB · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject:

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

ASPB · Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject:

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

Marine4life · Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:47 am Post subject:

I will put it simply;

1. Give up all of our rights, do we still have law?
Answer: YES

2. Give up our law's, do we still have rights.
Answer: NO

Argue it all you want but the facts are facts. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

ROWELG · Ensign Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Minnesota

Yes, I error in my understanding1

On Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:24 pm, Publius said "For liberals, rights trump law!"

On Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:48 am, and on who decides our RIGHTS, Publius said "Uh, that would be judges!"

On Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:46 am, Publius said "Judges aren't above the law!"

These statements are logically incongruous!
RIGHTS trump LAW!
Judges determine RIGHTS!
Judges interpret LAW!
Judges are not above the law!

On Judges, are they, or are they not, above the law.

In my logic, if laws can trump judges who determine RIGHTS, than laws can trump the rights that judges create beyond the laws. How can it be that "no person, including judges and Presidents, are above the law", AND YET "our body of law is not the supreme ruler of our civilization"? I don't understand this logic!

ROWELG · Ensign Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Minnesota

Publius says, and I agree: "The Constitution *is* about limiting the power of government and Jefferson said so in about a million ways."

The last time I looked, State and Federal courts, circuit courts, district courts, courts of appeal, and supreme courts are all government, mostly non-elected. I presume Jefferson also meant limiting their powers of judges and justices.

In my observations, the Judicial Branch has more power over we the people than do the legislative and executive branches. They at least have more than one third.

PS: Getting off the abstract, I still would like to have someone give one concrete specific RIGHT that trumps LAW, one RIGHT that violates a LAW where one will NEVER risk being arrested or sued by a lawyer.

ROWELG · Ensign Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Minnesota

CARPOR asks "what we are talking about when we say "rights trump law".?

There is more than one answer. I believe in one answer, as in this historical case. Wiith Gandhi in India, this meant "civil disobedience". Indians harvested the salt, for Britian. The entire society refused to. It was a social act of disobedience. In time, the British packed up and left leaving India independent. GANDI's position was moral. In this case, RIGHTS TRUMPED LAW. I agree with that one.

In another case, there was the Air Traffic Controller strike during the Reagan era. Federal Laws stated government unions could not strike. The ATC union violated the law and walked out of the towers throughout the nation, demanding more pay. Reagan fired them all, hiring many of them back. LIberals called it union busting. Reagan called it "breaking the law" and shutting the nation down in the process. In this case, LAW TRUMPED RIGHTS! And I agree with that one. The union didn't get its way in court, or in the public eye.

One must look at it, case by case. I am still looking for an individual or group case in modern USA, like the ATC strike, where RIGHT won!

Marine4life · Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:21 am Post subject:

Since liberals think that rights trump law it explains why we have such a lawless society right now. Clintons right to a BJ trumped the law protecting young interns from sexual harrassment.

You can think you have all the rights in the world, but they don't mean dudly squat without laws guaranteeing them. Under your theory I can shoot my rifle anywhere I want because I have a second ammendment right to do so, but try it in dowtown LA and see how far your rights go, or a National game preserve, or the beach. Rights are governed by law. Go into a Court room and exercise your right to freedom of speech during someone elses trial and see where your rights take you! Contempt of Court and straight to the hooscal. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes.

ASPB · Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:24 am Post subject:

I think before this debate goes much further we need be clear that, in at least my opinion, what were talking about when we mention law we're really talking about the specific rights and obligations of individuals and/or entities that have been agreed to by written contract. Examples would be the Articles of Confederation supplanted 10 years later by the U.S. Constitution. I give you the definition of constitution below to contemplate.

In a democratic republic all rights should, and I stress should, be reserved to the individual citizen unless ceded by written agreement to government (at all levels) in furtherance of the common good.

Let's see where this takes us!

ROWELG · Ensign Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Minnesota

ASPB says: "When we mention law we're really talking about the specific rights and obligations of individuals and/or entities that have been agreed to by written contract."

I just go one step further, and that this written contract has been debated in public by elected officials., in the end being a consensus of millions of citizens. E Pluribus Unum - Out of Many, One