SwiftVets.com

[lrb111]

[stylin19]

I'm still confused.

all the Ford memorandums mention deserters/draft dodgers EXCEPT the

Memorandum for the Attorney General
It would appear, that IF Sen. Kerry needed to clean-up his discharge, it should be under this memorandum.

It also says: In order to assist the identification process, I am requesting that you provide to the Secretaries of Defense and Transportation, as appropriate, the names and service numbers of all former service members who applied to the Presidential Clemency Board program and whose records indicate that they were wounded in combat or that they received decorations for valor in combat.

If he needed to clenup a discharge, he had to apply. If that's the case, that document should be floating around somewhere.(Assuming it hasn't already hit a shredder)
_________________
U.S.M.C. - 1969-1971
RVN- 1970-1971

[Hondo]

lrb111:

What is banned for folks in the military is being in complete military uniform at any form of political event, or any other form of official participation in a political event. The rationale is to avoid the appearance of official endorsement. That occasionally gets folks in trouble even today. PM me if you want a recent story.

All the photos I've seen of Kerry wearing fatigues were of him wearing a fatigue shirt with other items of civilian clothing and occurred after he was released from active duty. Saw a hell of a lot of guys in the early 1970s wearing old fatigue uniform parts mixed with civvies, so I don't exactly think that's going to go far. Also don't remember him wearing his rank in any of those photos (but I could be wrong).

Now, if someone has a photo of Kerry in full uniform at an anti-war rally while he was still in the USNR, he may be in "deep dudu".

Wearing medals/ribbons - assuming they are the ones you actually were awarded - is authorized in civilian attire. Uncommonly done, but it is allowed by law.


stylin19:

As I read it, the "Presidential Clemency Board" referred to in the Memo to the Attorny General you cite is the board that Ford established to consider Vietnam-era draft dogers' and deserters' requests for clemency. Ergo, the list prepared by the Attorny General would only contain the names of those who (1) were originally eligible to apply under Ford's clemency program, (2) had in fact already done so, and (3) had also been wounded in combat or received a decoration for valor. The list could thus only include deserters and draft dogers, as those would be the only persons eligible to have applied for clemency under Ford's Presidential Clemency Board proclamation in the first place.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[SBD]

[Hondo]

SBD:

I've seen references to DoD expanding the scope of the discharge review program in March 1977 "to include other offenders who may have had general, bad conduct, dishonorable discharges, and any other discharge or sentence with negative effect on military records." If true, this would have allowed Kerry to petition to have an undesirable discharge (resulting from resignation in lieu of court-martial for FTR) upgraded to honorable.

However, I have yet to be able to track down the DoD instructions for this program and review them myself, so I don't know for certain whether or not this is correct. You could be right.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[SBD]

So what exactly should I look for?

A Department of Justice Directive with reference to Carter's Proclamation?

SBD

[Hondo]

SBD:

What I've seen is references to either a DoD Memo (date was late Mar 1977 - 26 or 28 Mar, I think) or a DoD Directive from March 1977. Haven't been able to find the exact subject or directive number.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[George Danenhauer]

Apr. 21, 1971 Washington Post-Times Herald places Kerry at garden party of "Sen. and Mrs. Philip Hart last night." "50 or so present." Sen Fulbright "invited John Kerry, Yale graduate and smooth-shaven leader of the shaggy-haired veterans, to come up to his Foreign Relations committee and tell their story during the hearings." "Mrs. Hart welcomed the guests in her husband's absence. He was delayed by a speech in Seattle. She paid for the party herself and collected checks from incoming guests who wanted to help the veterans." The veterans "toold their stories in the terms of the peace they hope their movement will bring to Vietnam eventually."

Sounds like Kerry had it rough during the campout on the Mall!

From Pages 98 and 99 of 130 page pdf file of VVAW FBI files at

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/fbifiles/100-HQ-448092/Sub%20A%20Section%2001/Sub%20A%20Section%2001.pdf

[SBD]

So is it a coincedence that the website posted this letter and that it was one of the last items President Ford did before he ended his term?

She was obviously wanting to get someone discharged with honor and without giving her exactly what she asked for, it looks like he fulfilled her request. Unless someone knows of another Vietnam Veteran that was wounded and/or honored with medals who was also close to the Hart family, it might be fair to say the letter could address John Kerry!!

Maybe I can find the one she wrote to him??

SBD

[SBD]

No letter, it was a response to a phone call.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=5535&st=hart&st1=vietnam

GOOD MORNING, everybody.
REPORTER. Good morning, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT. I thought you might be tired of me, so I brought Susan [Susan Chafee, former U.S. Olympic skier] along.

Q. Mr. President, can we ask you a couple of questions?

THE PRESIDENT. Sure.

Q. Can you give us any indication of what kind of time frame you are operating on on this amnesty question?1

1 On Sunday, December 26, the President telephoned Jane Hart, Senator Philip A. Hart's widow, to express his condolences on her husband's death. At this time, Mrs. Hart asked the President to reconsider the possibility of amnesty for Vietnam draft evaders and deserters.

THE PRESIDENT. As prompt as possible.

Q. Would you think within the next week or so?

THE PRESIDENT. I think that is a fair time span.

Q. Can you give us any feeling for your inclination at this point? We know that you have opposed this in the past. You said that you were going to look into it. Are you leaning one way or the other at this point?

THE PRESIDENT. We are having a fair analysis made of the success of the program that I instituted in 1974,2 which showed about 21,000 out of 105,000, or thereabouts, took advantage of the program. It was a good program. I regret that many, many more didn't participate. But we have to take an overall look at the impact on military morale, public reaction, equity as far as those who participated and went through their process of earning their way to clear their records, and then see how it equates vis-a-vis the blanket order. I can't give you any particulars as to what the decision will be at the present.

SBD

2 See 1974 volume, Item 77 and 78.

[SBD]

This definately says that it was not Carter and look who shows up again!!!

"Ask President Carter" - Remarks During a Telephone Call-in Program on the CBS Radio Network.

March 5th, 1977

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=7119

MR. CRONKITE. The next questioner, Ronald Fouse, Centerville, Georgia. Mr. President, Mr. Fouse.

MR. FOUSE. Good afternoon, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT. Good afternoon, Mr. Fouse. I came through Centerville the last time I was home.

MR. FOUSE. Yes. You come through the Air Force Base I work at every time you come down.

THE PRESIDENT. Very fine. Go ahead with your question.

VIETNAM ERA VETERANS

MR. FOUSE. Yes, sir. Now that you pardoned the draft evaders and you propose to pardon the junkies and deserters, do you propose to do anything for the veterans such as myself that served the country with loyalty?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I thought I might get a friendlier question from Georgia, but I'll try to answer your question.

I don't intend to pardon any more people from the Vietnam era. I promised the American people when I was running for office that I would pardon the ones who violated the selective service laws. I don't have any apology to make about it, and think I made the right decision. But the deserters and others who have committed crimes against military law or civilian law will not be pardoned by me on any sort of blanket basis. My preference is to let the Defense Department handle those cases by categories or by individual cases.

We have moved, I think, already to help, as you said, loyal and patriotic veterans like yourself. And I have appointed a very fine young man to head up the Veterans Administration now, Max Cleland, who is a veteran of the Vietnam war. This is kind of a new generation of leadership, and within the economic package that I presented to Congress, we have a heavy emphasis on training and job opportunities for veterans.

So, I hope in the future that we can have a restoration in our country of appreciation for veterans who did go to the Vietnam war, who have not been thanked or appreciated enough in the past, and a much more sensitive Veterans Administration toward the Vietnam veterans who have not had as many benefits as veterans of previous wars that were more popular.

But I don't have any apology to make for what I have done, but you need not be concerned about an extension of pardons on a blanket basis in the future from me.

MR. FOUSE. Okay, sir. Thank you very much.

THE PRESIDENT. Thank you.

So, that only leaves the DOD and/or Ford as the Pardoning Party!!


SBD

[mangdawg]

[Hondo]

SBD:

If what little I've found about the DoD program is accurate, eligibility was widespread but the program was not a blanket amnesty. I believe it required the individual to apply for review of his/her discharge. Decisions were made on a case-by-case basis.

As to why DoD did this without a Presidential directive: don't know, but my guess is that it was someone high at DoD trying to "carry the water" for Carter. People try to please the boss and/or higher ups. My guess is that Carter made known his wish to avoid political problems regarding those who had been DISCHARGED for antiwar political actitivies, either directly or in some offhand remark. I think someone high in DoD at the time then took the issue and ran with it - whether or not that was what Carter really intended for them to do.

Ample precident, all the way back to Henry II and his fit-of-pique statement about Thomas à Becket ("Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?") that some of his knights took as reason to murder the clergyman.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[stylin19]

Hondo

thanx....now it fits in....I thought I was losin my mind.
_________________
U.S.M.C. - 1969-1971
RVN- 1970-1971

[sabreman]

In the telephone call to Jane Hart the President is asked by Mrs Hart to "reconsider the possibility of amnesty for Vietnam draft evaders and deserters."

This would indicate that there has been a previous request(s) for amnesty.......as in "reconsider"..... when, how many and by whom have these requests been made.

John Kerry I understand spent much time in the Mainline of Philly as a youth which is the same area that Senator P. Hart hails from and so do some of the Forbes'. It is highly likely that there were long standing family associations.

The link below to an excerpt from 'Tour of Duty'.... the private party at Senator Hart's home is written in the frame of mind that Kerry was a family friend.........

http://www.palmdigitalmedia.com/product/book/excerpt/16199

John Kerry would have been, due to his up bringing Navy Commission and apprently strong friendship with Senator Teddy Kennedy, a sitting duck in the VVAW for a political hit job especially after his first trip to Paris.

It is interesting that Kerry just upped and left for good the VVAW for no apparent reason ..... why ??

Was he by this stage in serve legal jeopardy due to his post Vietnam activities with the VVAW ??

When Kerry went before the Senate Committee the salutation from the Senators to Kerry was 'Mr. Kerry'..... Is that normal for a Commissioned Naval Officer before a United States Senate Committee ??

When Kerry threw his medals on the White House lawns during some anti-war demonstration was he in fact returning those same medals that may have already been rescinded by the Navy Department. The President is the Commander in Chief of the Navy. I remember reading not long ago that Kerry had all his medals reissued indicating that they may have been rescinded at some point.

And also, how many highly decorated vets got involved with the anti-war crowd anyway ??

In view of the requirements outlined by President Ford it is highly likely that Kerry had to complete something like a law degree and get a respectable job if he was to have any likelyhood of getting his name cleared with the Military.

So maybe we should go back a little earlier in this sordid history to someone who knew the rules........

http://www.archives.gov/nixon/white_house_central_files/name_files.html