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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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 Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Specifically, mikest, why don't you tell us - with evidence - just who "higher up" is responsible for the Abu Grahib abuses? The fact is, you can't - and I for one certainly won't miss you. As far as I'm concerned, you're just like Kerry. You contribute nothing intelligent to this board, and you have been AWOL as far as answering our charges of slander, treason and dishonor against Kerry. You problem - and Kerry's - is that you can't answer, because the charges are indefensible. Bye-bye, troll ..... thatisall.
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Officer Testifies in Abu Ghraib Case
Abu Ghraib Intelligence Chief Was Present During Attempt to Cover Up a Detainee Death, Officer Testifies
The Associated Press
BAGHDAD, Iraq June 25, 2004 — The lawyer for a soldier accused in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal said Friday the military might be incapable of handling the case because key players will not step forward for fear of incriminating themselves.
The comments by the lawyer of Spc. Sabrina Harman came a day after her company commander testified that the head of military intelligence at Abu Ghraib was present the night a plan was hatched to cover up the death of a detainee, apparently during questioning in November.
Harman, 26, of Alexandria, Va., faces possible court-martial for her alleged involvement in abusing Iraqi detainees at the facility outside Baghdad. She appeared Friday for the second day of an Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing, called to determine whether facts in the case are sufficient to warrant a court-martial or other action.
Harman's attorney, Frank Spinner, told a pool reporter after the hearing that he "has no doubt that Iraqi detainees have been physically abused on a wide scale" that would be "beyond the military's ability ever to prosecute."
"The chain of command they know it, too and the problem is that people won't step up and admit it," Spinner said. "To do it now would only subject them to prosecution."
On Thursday, Harman's company commander, Capt. Donald J. Reese, testified that he was asked to go to a shower room at the prison one night in November and found a group of intelligence personnel standing around the corpse of a bloodied detainee.
Col. Thomas M. Pappas, Abu Ghraib's commander of military intelligence, was among those who were there, discussing what to do with the body, Reese said.
"I'm not going down for this alone," Pappas said, according to Reese. No medics were called.
Reese told the court that an Army colonel named "Jordan" sent a soldier to the mess hall for ice to preserve the body overnight. An autopsy of the detainee the following day determined he died of a blood clot resulting from a blow to the head, Reese said.
The body was hooked up to an intravenous drip the following day and transported out of the prison.
The testimony did not further identify the colonel. However, the Taguba report on prison abuse at Abu Ghraib notes that Lt. Col. Steven L. Jordan was the head of the interrogation center at the prison.
Reese said in his testimony that military intelligence clearly controlled the cellblock where Harman's platoon worked the night shift with other members of her platoon.
An Army report obtained by The New Yorker magazine quotes Harman as saying her job was to keep detainees awake.
"My MPs, they were directed by the (military intelligence) people for what they wanted and how they wanted it," he said. |
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040625_619.html
Thank You for providing proof to back up what you say! |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:40 am Post subject: |
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retracted
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:03 am Post subject: |
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This is proof, yea right!! It is a Lawyer trying to spin his clients case. When it is over and the Court has ruled then it will be proof. Where exactly is that higher up thing? Military intellegence? They consist of Cpl's, Sgt's, Ssgt's and maybe a Lieutenant or two. I really don't think that you would find a General beating some Iraqi, or Bush for that matter. So exactly what is the higher up thing? Good spin though to try and get this forum off topic, now back to Kerry. Why did he commit treason and betray his fellow American's and still does to this day? That is the question that I ask of thee.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Theresa Alwood
Rear Admiral
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 631
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I still think I would rather have panties on my head...at least I would have a head. You just do not understand what this war is about. It is not just about 09-11, it is about our way of life. The middle east fundamentalist just want ALL AMERICANS DEAD!!! That includes all democrats! I have said this before and I will continue to say this: I would rather fight the terrorist in the Iraq then here in the U.S. I can not believe that you can not see the bigger picture. I truly believe that if we do not fight they will continue to attack us over and over and over...Oh wait they already did that. Remember Beirut, how about the first WTC. Does the Khobar
Towers ring a bell. How about two embassies in East Africa...if that doesn't do it how about the USS Cole??? If that does not strike you then maybe 09-11. How about those 3,000 people who died on that day.
What just really just confuses me is why when Pearl Harbor was attack American knew what needed to be done. The whole country came together, stood behind the President and men and women died to keep this country free. On 09-11 we can together for a brief moment in time and before the smoke had cleared the far left was already attacking our President. What has hurt this country is the likes of John "F" Kerry and the DNC. The liberal have just gone too far to the left and unless we bring it back to the middle this country will be worse than with Jimmy Carter was in office.
I just do not understand how people can not comprehend what and why we are fighting. This is will be the most defining moment in our history. This will beat WWI and WWII. We must defeat terrorism. President Bush told us it would be a long fight. In this day and age when instant gratification is what is all about Americans seem not be able to withstand anything that takes time. When you are fighting an enemy who does not wear a uniform, who is faceless it is hard and will be a continue challenge. But this is a fight we must continue and we must win. Our future does depend on this. I want my children to be able to walk down the street without having to worry if some terrorist is going to attach a suicide bomb onto themselves and blow up innocent people. It will happen if we do not stand up and win this war. I fear this country will reign with terror to the likes to which we do not yet fully realized or can begin to understand. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The right is saying this is strictly the soldiers fault, the rest of us know it goes farther up than that. |
Like others, I wish to see actual evidence of this "knowledge" you claim to have. Otherwise, it just appears the only thing you really know is your own personal hatred of George W. Bush.
| Quote: | | Funny how people who claim to back the soldiers are willing to let them be hung out to dry. |
Funnier still that the left, who also claims to "support our soldiers," denigrates their every effort there and places all 140,000 of them in the same category with the 7 or so that committed abuses and are being dealt with.
Now, when does the left start dealing with the terrorists that have been beheading innocent civilians? Something a bit more than the usual lip service and a scant few seconds of saying they wrong and followed by many minutes of how they were driven to it by Bush's policies. |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | This is proof, yea right!! It is a Lawyer trying to spin his clients case. When it is over and the Court has ruled then it will be proof. Where exactly is that higher up thing? Military intellegence? They consist of Cpl's, Sgt's, Ssgt's and maybe a Lieutenant or two. I really don't think that you would find a General beating some Iraqi, or Bush for that matter. So exactly what is the higher up thing? Good spin though to try and get this forum off topic, now back to Kerry. Why did he commit treason and betray his fellow American's and still does to this day? That is the question that I ask of thee. |
No, it is testimony about the mil intel commander. The other quote was about Col. Pappas. If the only topic of this forum is about Kerry, why are there so many posts that have nothing to do with Kerry?
Hist/stud
The Vince Foster episode was cleared by the Starr inquiry. OJ was guilty as hell.
The handcuffing was not the same as being arrested. The technique was to pin the arms high up and it somewhat supports your body. Try it sometime, I have and it felt like my arms were being torn off after only a few minutes. I'm not a fan of shock collars but they are for control, not interrigation.
I do not come down on the soldiers because I think they are in an untennable position. They don't have much choice in the matter and they have had to see and hear about their friends dying. I'm not sure what I would have done in their place. I do blame the higher ups because it is their job to stay rational and within the law and accepted standards.
Theresa
As I have said before, I think the war in Iraq has hurt not helped the war on terror. The Abu Ghraib problems have only exhaserbated the problem. After 9/11 I wanted to nuke the entire middle east. Now I think we need to do it differently. Instead we should use special ops people to go after the cells quietly while remaining true to our human rights standards in most situations. There are many moderate people in the ME who are just as afraid of the zealots as the rest of the world. They need to be able to point to us as a model of decency, and things like AG are too easy to show as oppression. If the war had been fought in a way to win the peace we would not be in this situation. I've said it before, I was against the war before ot happened but wanted it done right when it was obvious it was going to happen. If we had had the initial plans of 250,000+ troops, that may have been possible. Instead it was done on the cheap. Rumsfeld should have listened, instead they are now talking about bringing in 25,000 more troops. It would have been much easier to take control in the beginning with enough people to put down the rebellions at the start.
15 of the 19 highjackers were from Saudi Arabia. Their govt has been shown to support terrorists. They allowed a girls school to burn down with the girls in it because non family males are not allowed to see or touch them. They are a much more worthwhile target for our contempt and rage. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Cleaver work, you start the trolling then blame others for responding to derail this site. Won't work!!! Seeeeee ya.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Okay Wardog lets get this back on topic America will lose if Kerry gets elected. I think that is what we were talking about before the troll changed the subject to Abu once again. It goes much deeper than that, we will lose first then the entire world will lose without us at the helm. We are the superpower that has to ensure the rest of the ungrateful peon's remain sovern. With Kerry at the helm we will hand the terrorists the key to our country on a silver platter. These people don't want to be sovern, they want complete control with fear. That is how they rule. Anyone who thinks they can be talked to is ignorant and stupid. We are executing the war on terror exactly the way we should, go after it were ever it is, kick it in the teeth then move on to the next stupid country that wants to harbor and aid them. The left won't win this time, to much is at stake. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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retracted
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Let's put this topic back on track. From now own, no more posts about the Bush Administration, the Prison abuse thing, or anything that happened during the Clinton Administration.
Stick to the topic at hand, and that is Kerry. Any posts not dealing with John F. Kerry and why he should or should not be the next President of the United States of America will be deleted.
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | This is the agenda, take anything positive and spin it back to the old broken record. Take every post off subject. |
Kerry supporters and other leftists (and Kerry's re-election committee itself), when losing an argument, will try to:
1. change the subject
2. move the goalposts
3. distract from the line of argument with irrelevancy and various Dilbertonian flavors of illogic (as defined at http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/ )
4. outright lie about stubborn facts
5. attack the opposition ad-hominem
Thanks to the moderators for not letting them do the above. (My only wish is that more people would study the issues at http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/ and use this material more frequently).
By the way, an observation by Victor Hanson:
Right after 9/11, some of us thought it was impossible for leftist critics to undermine a war against fascists who were sexist, fundamentalist, homophobic, racist, ethnocentric, intolerant of diversity, mass murderers of Kurds and Arabs, and who had the blood of 3,000 Americans on their hands. We were dead wrong. In fact, they did just that. Abu Ghraib is on the front pages daily. Stories of thousands of American soldiers in combat against terrorist killers from the Hindu Kush to Fallujah do not merit the D section. Senator Kennedy's two years of insane outbursts should have earned him formal censure rather than a commemoration from the Democratic establishment.
The cultural war we are in with Leftism will be long and hard.
What I would like to hear from Mikest and other leftists is why they in effect, or in actuality take the side of fascists who are sexist, fundamentalist, homophobic, racist, ethnocentric, intolerant of diversity, mass murderers of Kurds and Arabs, and who had the blood of 3,000 Americans on their hands. This leftist slant towards heinous dictators became apparent to me in John Kerry's relations with the Communists in the early 1970's.
It really mystifies me, and the only explanation I can come up with as a physician who has worked with the mentally ill, including those with self-destructive tendencies, is that leftists are indeed deranged.
FDL |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: back on topic |
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OK, mikest, looks like you're still with us, although I disagree with what you consider to be proof, or even evidence. Besides, a Lt. Col.? Surely you could have done better than that, considering you really want to prove that such abuses are the policy of the Bush administration.
So, to return to the topic:
Given that we believe - "we" being every single 'Nam vet who has visited here except Doug Reese, who refuses to even answer our charges against Kerry - that Kerry slandered us (especially his fellow Swifties), met with the enemy (not once, but twice), marched in demonstrations under a VC flag, and dishonored himself, all vets, his country, and especially 6,801 dead Marines with his mockery of the Iwo Jima memorial, we believe he would damage this country and appease terrorists, not to mention his massive lack of honor and integrity.
Listen, mikest, and people like you - and listen good:
Any man who did any one of the above despicable actions will only hurt this country as President, and is not fit to serve. Please read what's next to my name below if you still don't get it! That's what this topic is about!!!
Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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Theresa Alwood
Rear Admiral
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 631
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:10 am Post subject: |
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OK Mike...so you think we ought to just go in and take out Saudi? While I realize that Saudi is not our friend...I realize that Iraq was a much bigger threat than Saudi. I still think Iraq had WMD's and where they went to is and was my bigger concern.
I do not think any of us want war - I would much rather have peace, but failing to see the link between Iraq and al-Qaeda is really naive. Where do you think al-Zarqawi was...in Iraq. What do you think he was doing in Iraq? Just visiting relatives or sight seeing.
I may not be the brightest bulb in the box; I may just be some dumb vet (and no I am not saying you said any of us were dumb) but I can look past the liberal media and form my own views without being manipulated by the liberal views. I am a conservative by heart. I will not apologize for that. I am a republican by choice and proud of that. Nothing you say will or can persuade me to change my opinion on John Kerry. He is not the choice we need in office...and never will be. |
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