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Big Kahuna
Lieutenant
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 219
Location: SE Texas
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 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:57 pm Post subject: More on Kerry's Purple Heart |
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| Quote: | This letter was published in USA Today:
Criticism Of Kerry’s Purple Heart Is Just
Retired U.S. Army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential candidate John Kerry’s Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer – and that is received in action with an enemy. (“The meaning of a Purple Heart”, The Forum, June 16.)
I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on December 3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night – and that Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round that he’d fired too close.
He wanted a Purple Heart – and I refused. Louis Letson, the base physician, saw Kerry – and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of shrapnel, about 1 centimeter in length and 2 millimeters in diameter. Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.
We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is unacceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic military principle that we survive together.
To promote yourself – is to denigrate your team.
I hope that Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization of Kerry’s swift-boat comrades as “grousers” passing on “second hand bilge”.
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge – and our integrity is unquestioned.
Kerry orchestrated his way out of Vietnam – and then testified under oath before Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war crimes.
This testimony was a lie – and slandered honorable men. We who were actually there believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.
Grant Hibbard, retired commander U.S. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.
Louis Letson, MD, retired lieutenant commander, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy
Reserve, Scottsboro, Ala
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Top 10 Weasels.com is where Kerry is Weasel #1 |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject: new story |
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Wow! Thanks, BK! This in no way diminishes the good things- taking Doug at his word, at least - he did in his 4 months in 'Nam, but it is interesting, and I believe says much about his character that he used this "wound" to leave his men and come home. It's becoming clear that he didn't deserve, technically or otherwise, his 3rd PH; I believe his CO's judgement was correct. This is by no means, by the way, why I hate the man, but it's still another reason to consider him unfit for CIC.
Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: More on Kerry's Purple Heart |
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| Big Kahuna wrote: | | Quote: | a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer – and that is received in action with an enemy. (“The meaning of a Purple Heart”, The Forum, June 16.)
"snip,snip"
He wanted a Purple Heart – and I refused. Louis Letson, the base physician, saw Kerry – and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of shrapnel, about 1 centimeter in length and 2 millimeters in diameter. Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.
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That scratch necessitated treatment by a medical officer?
I have trouble picturing anyone with the audacity to go to the Doctor with something that minor. Talk about cojones! 
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:09 am Post subject: Re: More on Kerry's Purple Heart |
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It's FANTASTIC to see that letter PUBLISHED in a mainstream media publication. CONGRATULATIONS to both CDR Hibbard and LCDR Letson for their courage in, again, stepping up to the national media with their story. Hopefully this is a portend of greater SBVFT activism to come and the interest that the media may have in their story.
WELL DONE!
| JN173 wrote: |
That scratch necessitated treatment by a medical officer?
I have trouble picturing anyone with the audacity to go to the Doctor with something that minor. Talk about cojones! |
JN173, what all must understand (and please forgive me if you do) is that documented treatment by a military medical facility is a required element in the issuance of the award. Kerry saw to it that he had that angle covered.
| Quote: | AR 600-8-22, 2-8, b., 2
(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.
Purple Heart |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:49 am Post subject: Re: More on Kerry's Purple Heart |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | JN173 wrote: |
That scratch necessitated treatment by a medical officer?
I have trouble picturing anyone with the audacity to go to the Doctor with something that minor. Talk about cojones! |
JN173, what all must understand (and please forgive me if you do) is that documented treatment by a military medical facility is a required element in the issuance of the award. Kerry saw to it that he had that angle covered.
| Quote: | AR 600-8-22, 2-8, b., 2
(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.
Purple Heart |
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Actually Jay,
You may be, at least partly wrong, on this one. From everything I've been able find there is no published medical record of the treatment for PH-1 Kerry claims to have a sickcall note signed by a hospitalman but there is no "card" in Naval records. A couple of journalists have claimed to have seen it.
Without release of his combat medical records, which he refuses to release, there is no way to verify anything. I've gotta tell you however that both of signers of this letter claim to be democrat or independent so it's hard to see partisan political motive.
Motive to distort because of Wintersoldier and VVAW? Yeah, that's possible but I'll personally trust their honor one hell of a lot more than Kerry's; especially in light of his refusal to release the medical records.
A point of personal history. I have a piece of M-79 shrapnel still in my stomach from exactly the same kind of wound Kerry received. A self-inflicted short M-79 round. Do I have a Purple Heart for the wound? No! I was too embarrassed ask for one!
Chutzpah? Self-aggrandizing? What do you think?
Punishment for Kerry? How about the next 7 1/2 months in Vietnam without a camera? 
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:07 am Post subject: Re: More on Kerry's Purple Heart |
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| ASPB wrote: |
Actually Jay,
You may be, at least partly wrong, on this one. From everything I've been able find there is no published medical record of the treatment for PH-1 Kerry claims to have a sickcall note signed by a hospitalman but there is no "card" in Naval records. A couple of journalists have claimed to have seen it.
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Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong 'bout something, but, it seems to me that the very fact that the PH was awarded is, de facto, an indication that proper documentation was presented.
One other point worthy of mention while we're on the subject. Kerry wasn't awarded his first PH until almost 3 MONTHS after the fact. It seems almost certain that he submitted himself to another command for the issuance of the award. Look at the difference in the time between action/award in the following...
PH1 Injury: 2 Dec 68 Award Date? 28 Feb 69
PH2 Injury: 20 Feb 69 Award Date? 5 Mar 69
PH3 Injury: 13 Mar 69 Award Date? 17 Apr 69
13 days to "process" #2 and 35 days to "process" #3.
88 DAYS to "process" #1??????? Nor had #3 even been officially awarded prior to Kerry's DEROS. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: Re: More on Kerry's Purple Heart |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | ASPB wrote: |
Actually Jay,
You may be, at least partly wrong, on this one. From everything I've been able find there is no published medical record of the treatment for PH-1 Kerry claims to have a sickcall note signed by a hospitalman but there is no "card" in Naval records. A couple of journalists have claimed to have seen it.
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Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong 'bout something, but, it seems to me that the very fact that the PH was awarded is, de facto, an indication that proper documentation was presented.
One other point worthy of mention while we're on the subject. Kerry wasn't awarded his first PH until almost 3 MONTHS after the fact. It seems almost certain that he submitted himself to another command for the issuance of the award. Look at the difference in the time between action/award in the following...
PH1 Injury: 2 Dec 68 Award Date? 28 Feb 69
PH2 Injury: 20 Feb 69 Award Date? 5 Mar 69
PH3 Injury: 13 Mar 69 Award Date? 17 Apr 69
13 days to "process" #2 and 35 days to "process" #3.
88 DAYS to "process" #1??????? Nor had #3 even been officially awarded prior to Kerry's DEROS. |
#3 before DEROS doesn't surprise me in the least as to action/award. Especially if you're to believe, which I do, that Kerry pressed for the award of #1 after the award of #2 and possibly even after the award of #3 with a little backdating.
I served in units like this as you know. To get something back-dated from a sickcall note with a unit lead yeoman by an agressive LT(jg) or a command team that wanted him gone was an easy thing to do.
Purple Hearts were awarded in theater. In other words a TWX to Saigon could have granted the award for PH#1, even after PH#3 had occurred.
In other words, a sickcall note in hand and after #2 and #3 yields #1 which yields a freedom ticket. Either at Kerry's behest or at the behest of those that have stated they wanted him out of there.
Think about it.
And another thing: I have 1 PH. If I'd been hit a second time and had a sickcall note for my self-inflicted wound, I would have had to think about the Freedom Bird long and hard!
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: |
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The way I read the regs that are quoted above, the question is did the wound require treatment by an officer. In the Army that would mean a 2nd Lt. or above. Not a Medic i.e. enlisted. And not just that a Doctor treated the wound, but that the wound was serious enough to mandate, necessitate, require, ..... such treatment. I would question that the described scratch rises to that level.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:34 am Post subject: Re: new story |
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| waltjones wrote: | Wow! Thanks, BK! This in no way diminishes the good things- taking Doug at his word, at least - he did in his 4 months in 'Nam, but it is interesting, and I believe says much about his character that he used this "wound" to leave his men and come home. It's becoming clear that he didn't deserve, technically or otherwise, his 3rd PH; I believe his CO's judgement was correct. This is by no means, by the way, why I hate the man, but it's still another reason to consider him unfit for CIC.
Semper Fi! |
Minor point, Walt -- this is about his first Purple Heart (date of action), not his third.
Doug |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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This site was posted in another thread -- good read.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/
John F. Kerry: The Complete Biography: By the Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him Best," a greatly expanded version of this in-depth profile, through Public Affairs Books. Excerpts here….
Relating to the PH, and Kerry's exit from Nam ....from Part2
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml
The Navy could not say how many other officers or sailors got a similar early release from combat, but it was unusual for anyone to have three Purple Hearts.
Kerry's early departure meant that he was leaving behind a crew that had suffered through many bloody battles with him. Worried that crew members would be killed, he arranged for them to receive a safer assignment. When one crew member, Medeiros, tried to stay, Kerry "came and talked to me and said, `I really would like you to go. ... I'd like to know you are safe, or safer."'
Question for the vets -- How usual /unusal is that? To have your crew reassigned to safer duty?
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one of..... We The People |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How usual /unusal is that? To have your crew reassigned to safer duty? |
Knowing little about Swiftboats, I'd like to know just what he considered "safer duty?" Additionally, how does a junior grade officer HAVE his crew reassigned after his departure?
In my Army unit, no officer departing HAD any part of the unit reassigned anywhere. It was business as usual, just with a different officer. |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kate wrote: | | Question for the vets -- How usual /unusal is that? To have your crew reassigned to safer duty? |
Read what one of the enlisted men (not Gardner) on Kerry's boat had to say about that:
| Quote: | He left for the States and never said good-bye but I was an enlisted man and had no
right to expect that courtesy.
When he got back to the States he goes in with the Vets Against and I felt betrayed.
But it was his right. I really think he was just seizing the opportunity to get political
support from his State and how he interpreted their feelings.
By the way the NVA flag he has in his office (or so they say) belonged to me and he
took it. And no I am still not over that. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| rbshirley wrote: | | kate wrote: | | Question for the vets -- How usual /unusal is that? To have your crew reassigned to safer duty? |
Read what one of the enlisted men (not Gardner) on Kerry's boat had to say about that:
| Quote: | He left for the States and never said good-bye but I was an enlisted man and had no
right to expect that courtesy.
When he got back to the States he goes in with the Vets Against and I felt betrayed.
But it was his right. I really think he was just seizing the opportunity to get political
support from his State and how he interpreted their feelings.
By the way the NVA flag he has in his office (or so they say) belonged to me and he
took it. And no I am still not over that. |
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Who was that? Where did the quote come from, if you still have the source?
Doug |
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cgc
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: Kerry's Purple hearts |
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Its a no brainer! He knew the system, he used the system, Congratulations Mr. Kerry! Now please go somewhere and disappear, and let this country go about the business of making itself safe. I for the life of me cannot understand how people are defending this creep. He distorted our efforts, slandered our dead, and yet there are still people on this site defending this piece of ****. VOTE BUSH!
CGC Swift Boat Veteran 68/69 An Toi / Danang |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 6:30 am Post subject: What Enemy? |
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| JN173 wrote: | | The way I read the regs that are quoted above, the question is did the wound require treatment by an officer. In the Army that would mean a 2nd Lt. or above. Not a Medic i.e. enlisted. And not just that a Doctor treated the wound, but that the wound was serious enough to mandate, necessitate, require, ..... such treatment. I would question that the described scratch rises to that level. |
The more important issue is that the injury must result from enemy action not carelessness. If there was no enemy action there should have been no purple heart regardless of whether he received any "medical treatment" or not.
_________________
"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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