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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | | Quote: | | How usual /unusal is that? To have your crew reassigned to safer duty? |
Knowing little about Swiftboats, I'd like to know just what he considered "safer duty?" Additionally, how does a junior grade officer HAVE his crew reassigned after his departure?
In my Army unit, no officer departing HAD any part of the unit reassigned anywhere. It was business as usual, just with a different officer. |
Good point! Although considering Kerry's recklessness, maybe having someone else in charge of the boat would be safer.
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:18 am Post subject: Re: What Enemy? |
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| jalexson wrote: | | JN173 wrote: | | The way I read the regs that are quoted above, the question is did the wound require treatment by an officer. In the Army that would mean a 2nd Lt. or above. Not a Medic i.e. enlisted. And not just that a Doctor treated the wound, but that the wound was serious enough to mandate, necessitate, require, ..... such treatment. I would question that the described scratch rises to that level. |
The more important issue is that the injury must result from enemy action not carelessness. If there was no enemy action there should have been no purple heart regardless of whether he received any "medical treatment" or not. |
It must result because of enemy action, but the injury need not be inflicted by the enemy.
In other words, friendly fire, of sorts, can qualify for a Purple Heart.
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: What Enemy? |
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| DougReese wrote: | | jalexson wrote: | | JN173 wrote: | | The way I read the regs that are quoted above, the question is did the wound require treatment by an officer. In the Army that would mean a 2nd Lt. or above. Not a Medic i.e. enlisted. And not just that a Doctor treated the wound, but that the wound was serious enough to mandate, necessitate, require, ..... such treatment. I would question that the described scratch rises to that level. |
The more important issue is that the injury must result from enemy action not carelessness. If there was no enemy action there should have been no purple heart regardless of whether he received any "medical treatment" or not. |
It must result because of enemy action, but the injury need not be inflicted by the enemy.
In other words, friendly fire, of sorts, can qualify for a Purple Heart.
Doug |
Just to avoid challenges see the following.
| Quote: | 5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
(b) Heat stroke.
(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
(e) Battle fatigue.
(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.
(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.
(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.
(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.
(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:
(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.
(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.
(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence. |
Reports are that they were not receiving fire so the "heat of battle" exclusion for self-inflicted wounds would not apply.
The "There's a Sampan..Shoot" exclusion for self-inflicted wounds doesn't exist! 
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Special note should also be taken of the following...
| Quote: | | (6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration , the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. |
"Commanders" judgement as to the nature and circumstance of the injury is an integral part of the process where the nature of the "injury" is patently minor and doesn't require displacement from the unit. CDR Hibbard has made his "judgement" about Kerry's petition for PH#1 public knowledge. He was incredulous (my word), and probably embarrassed by it. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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BrianC Wrote: Transferred to this Thread
| Quote: | Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:36 am Post subject: Former Kerry Commander Disputes Purple Heart
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http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/news/html/5DFF3A46-31C3-48B4-9EB8-BFF13921FA71.shtml
(in part):
"The reports I got back the next morning from crew members was that they received no enemy fire," Hibbard said.
Hibbard, who was 34 at the time, said crew members reported they had spotted the Viet Cong fleeing on the beach and that Kerry fired a M-79, a small grenade launcher that struck some nearby rocks. Hibbard said Kerry was likely struck by a piece of shrapnel from the grenade.
The next day, Hibbard said Kerry approached him and said he had been wounded in combat and showed him a piece of shrapnel the thickness of a pencil lead that was less than a half-inch long.
"I described it as a fingernail scratch," Hibbard said. "He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, but I have no information of how or from whom."
Scottsboro, Ala., resident Louis Letson, a retired general practitioner, was the physician at Cam Rahn Bay who treated Kerry's wound. Letson backed up Hibbard's account of what happened.
Letson said he removed a small sliver of metal from Kerry's arm that was consistent with the material in an M-79 grenade and covered it with a Band-Aid. Letson said he remembers the event well because he saw few injuries at Cam Ranh Bay and the ones he treated stood out.
"I probably would not have remembered Lt. Kerry's name had it not been for the comments that some of his crew made to the medics," Letson said. "They said Kerry told them he was the next JFK from Massachusetts and would some day be president. I found that sufficiently interesting and amusing that I remembered the event."
Shortly afterward, Kerry was reassigned to a swift boat division patrolling the more dangerous inland rivers, earning two more Purple Hearts and a reassignment stateside after four months in Vietnam. Kerry critics have questioned whether any of his injuries were serious enough to warrant Purple Hearts.
As to why Hibbard waited 35 years to come forward with his protests against Kerry.
"It didn't matter then," Hibbard said. "It matters now."
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BrianC
PO2
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Mr. Moderator - hadn't noticed this thread as being in the same vein.
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Grampa
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Eureka, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Funny thing is, we're seeing the same thing from our deployment.
Guys that had been injured, but the CO had determined didn't warrant a PH, are resubmitting their documents to stateside PH boards. This requires more documentation than when in theater, but we've had some troops who've submitted false sworn statements to such boards after they had been evacced home for injuries. The boards dont know any better, so they tend to believe the evacced troop. We've had to submit rebuttal statements by eyewitnesses to stop these phonies.
It is amazing what some will do to get a scrap of ribbon to pin on their chest thay they didnt earn. But, they don't care about honor, evidently.
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Sgt-Keeper
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:57 pm Post subject: Self-inflicted M79? |
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I carried that sweet weapon for 4 months in-country until the bad guys figured out that squad leaders had them. We then had to turn them in & get reissued the good old M14. The M79 had a delayed reaction built into the grenade itself so we could fire in dense jungle & it wouldn't arm itself until it was a good distance away. The only way I could see self-inflicted is the old arrow poem. "I shot an arrow in to the air, it fell to earth I know not where. I lose more darn arrows that way." What the heck were you guys doing with that thing? Shooting straight up? At birds maybe? 
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Fix the problem, not the blame.
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Self-inflicted M79? |
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| Sgt-Keeper wrote: | | I carried that sweet weapon for 4 months in-country until the bad guys figured out that squad leaders had them. We then had to turn them in & get reissued the good old M14. The M79 had a delayed reaction built into the grenade itself so we could fire in dense jungle & it wouldn't arm itself until it was a good distance away. The only way I could see self-inflicted is the old arrow poem. "I shot an arrow in to the air, it fell to earth I know not where. I lose more darn arrows that way." What the heck were you guys doing with that thing? Shooting straight up? At birds maybe? |
Take my word for it. I still have shrapnel in my stomach to this day from a self-inflicted short M-79 round. My boat lurched over a wake and causing the round to follow a low trajectory, hit the beach about 20-25 yards from the boat and detonate. A piece of the AP core about the size of a small match head struck me just below my Flak Jacket.
I know of at least 4 similar occurences in just 1 Riverine Boat Division in the 5 months from Nov 68 thru April 69.
So, if you like but your facts are wrong.
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nakona
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have never been a position to apply for a purple heart, but I think that in my mind, I would want to meet two basic criteria, so that I wouldn't feel like a Jackåss doing it:
1) Someone was shooting at me, and;
2) Something happened that required stitches.
I mean, if I get hit by something big enough that I need to have a medic sew it back up, even if it's only 3 stitches and an APC, I'm gettin' me an "I Didn't Duck" medal. But something that is treated with a bandaid or less? I'd feel too silly to put in for one.
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nakona wrote: | I have never been a position to apply for a purple heart, but I think that in my mind, I would want to meet two basic criteria, so that I wouldn't feel like a Jackåss doing it:
1) Someone was shooting at me, and;
2) Something happened that required stitches.
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You choice, but neither is required by the regulations.
I might add that you can get some nasty wounds that don't require stitches. Specifically, some significant shrapnel wounds might not get a single stitch, as they leave the shrapnel in -- depending on a number of circumstances.
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| nakona wrote: | I have never been a position to apply for a purple heart, but I think that in my mind, I would want to meet two basic criteria, so that I wouldn't feel like a Jackåss doing it:
1) Someone was shooting at me, and;
2) Something happened that required stitches.
I mean, if I get hit by something big enough that I need to have a medic sew it back up, even if it's only 3 stitches and an APC, I'm gettin' me an "I Didn't Duck" medal. But something that is treated with a bandaid or less? I'd feel too silly to put in for one. |
My feelings exactly with the exception of things like concussive injuries e.g. busted eardrums and things of a similar ilk.
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nakona
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's just that I would feel stupid trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
For instance, I'm a disabled veteran because of injuries sustained in a parachute accident in '86, while attached to the 75th Ranger Regiment.
Sounds really macho, right?
Well, it was a feckin' stateside training accident with a late opening chute and a bad landing. And beleive me... I was NOT shy about asking for pain killers.
Naturally, I don't want to go around bragging about that. Not that there's anything shameful about it, don't get me wrong. It's an honest work injury, not a dose of the clap from down on VD drive.
But it's not on my list of "war stories".
Getting a PH is like bragging. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you got shot at, hit, and lived; that's honest braggin' rights.
So basically, what Kerry did with his purple hearts would be like me turning my lame-åss training accident into a heroic war story. You know... Cheesy.
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| nakona wrote: | It's just that I would feel stupid trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
For instance, I'm a disabled veteran because of injuries sustained in a parachute accident in '86, while attached to the 75th Ranger Regiment.
Sounds really macho, right?
Well, it was a feckin' stateside training accident with a late opening chute and a bad landing. And beleive me... I was NOT shy about asking for pain killers.
Naturally, I don't want to go around bragging about that. Not that there's anything shameful about it, don't get me wrong. It's an honest work injury, not a dose of the clap from down on VD drive.
But it's not on my list of "war stories".
Getting a PH is like bragging. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you got shot at, hit, and lived; that's honest braggin' rights.
So basically, what Kerry did with his purple hearts would be like me turning my lame-åss training accident into a heroic war story. You know... Cheesy. |
We're not in disagreement at all! I didn't ask for a PH for the short M-79 round in '69; In fact I didn't even seek out medical treatment! I was too F'ing embarrassed to have the fragment even removed.
It's interesting about the parachuting accident. I blew up an ankle which had to be surgically pinned back together doing the same thing. Only difference was it happened in sport-parachuting years after I left military service. Among certain friends I'm still called "SkyDump"
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| nakona wrote: |
Getting a PH is like bragging. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you got shot at, hit, and lived; that's honest braggin' rights.
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Well then, Kerry pretty much did all of the above. There may not have been much (or any) shooting when he got his first PH, but there sure was for the other two.
Doug |
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