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[sleeplessinseattle]

[sleeplessinseattle]

Another update on the Dutch battle against Muslim Extremists.

[msindependent]

http://www.muslimsforbush.com/

[Inatizzy]

[noc]

[Poacher]

The problem is one of sheer envy. Just look at them. They have done nothing for the humane cause since the 7th century. They have produced no technology, no classics, no advancement in medicine, and I can go on and on. They treat women like dogs still. They are still living in the same muck that they did centuries ago whereby the west has move on way beyond them. They need us more and more. We have young girls here still being murdered by honour killings because they will not conform to forced marriages which is social prostitution.
We in Europe are not happy and are getting increasingly concerned at the lack of government will to tackle the proble.
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try not to grumble

[Inatizzy]

[sleeplessinseattle]

First of all, welcome from the UK Poacher.

I agree with Inatizzy that we have not seen the moderate Muslims stand up.

NOC said people didn't stand up to the Nazzis but there was an organized group that was jailed and killed for standing up to the Nazis. They were called the "Confessing Church" in Germany and included Martin Neimoller and Detriech Boehnhoeffer (executed by the Nazis a mere two months before Hitler's suicide and German total capitulation). The most certainly did stand up to, among other things, the stripping out of references to Jewish people in the Old and New Testaments and the treatment of Jews in Germany leading up to the war...of course this made them enemies and eventually they were also rounded up and jailed or killed...but they did stand up..Muslims in this country will never be killed by Americans if they stand up for the right - they may come under the same threat as we're all under by bin Laden (May his name be cursed ). For that matter how many Muslims were slaughtered by their fellow Muslims on 9/11. For that matter how many Muslims have slaughtered each other in the Iran/Iraq war, etc. etc....at what point will moderate Muslims stand up and say - there IS another way. If they don't, their religion is doomed to be razed to rubble...they will have doomed their people by their very silence...

I do not consider myself prejudiced...I will say though that 9/11 and this whole situation has utterly changed my view of Islam as a great historical faith (when properly exercised) to understanding, as Inatizzy says, that large portions (majorities?) of Muslims think the Koran's teachings REQUIRE the killing of the non-Muslim.

What I don't understand is how I've read at times in Muslim history that they were "tolerant of Jews and Christians" (i.e. didn't force them to convert as long as Muslims predominated...). If anything, if they could get back to that era (within the Middle East) than we should be all for it.

Other than some of these moderations happening - I for one will be actively opposing to even so called "moderate" Muslim groups, all the moreso as we see that CAIR, for instance, has had this happen:

"Two associates (Ghassan Elashi, Randall Royer) have been convicted on terrorism-related charges, one (Bassem Khafegi) convicted on fraud charges, two (Rabih Haddad, Bassem Khafegi) have been deported, and one (Siraj Wahhaj) remains at large."

And the American Muslim Council - I think is now defunct because of their terrorism charges...lots of times we're talking about people supporting Hamas or Hezzbollah also, as if these groups are somehow "better" than AQ because they don't saw peoples heads off with kitchen knives, no they simply blow their bodies to smitherines with explosive belts...so much more compassionate, they.

I would also suggest you keep eyes on the mosques in your cities...Find them...monitor their websites...demand that they take stands of moderation...this is not harassment...it is common sense and concern for our community...including, for crying out loud, the Muslims!
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"We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." -- President Bush 2001

Thanks W, Swifties, POWs & brave soldiers everywhere fighting for America and for freedom

[Inatizzy]

Remember Salman Rushdie? He is a "moderate" Muslim. He tried, through his book The Satanic Verses to show that much of what is written in the Koran seems to be evil. That Mohammed seemed to speak out of both sides of him mouth.

Remember what happened to him?

Here's part of the story: But he is STILL living in fear of his life from faithful Muslim assassins.

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Rushdie won in 1988 the Whitbread Award with his fourth novel, The Satanic Verses. The story opens spectacularly. Gibreel Farishta and Saladin Chamcha, two Indian actors, fall to earth after an Air India jumbo jet explodes 30,000 feet above the English Channel. This refers to a real act of terrorism, when an Air India Boeing 747 was blown up in 1985 - supposedly by Sikh terrorist. Gibreel Farishta in Urdu, means Gabriel Angel, which makes him the archangel whom Islamic tradition regards as "bringing down" the Qur'an from God to Muhammad. "'To be born again,' sang Gibreel Farishta tumbling from the heavens, 'first you have to die. Ho ji! To land upon the bosomy earth, first one needs to fly. Tat-taa! Taka-thun! How to ever smile again, if first you won't cry? How to win the darling's love, mister, without a sigh? Baba, if you want to get born again...' Just before dawn one winter's morning, New Year's Day or thereabouts, two real, full-grown, living men fell from a great height, twenty-nine thousand and two feet, towards the English Channel, without benefit of parachutes or wings, out of a clear sky." (from The Satanic Verses) Gibreel Farishta and Saladin are miraculously saved, and chosen as protagonist in the fight between Good and Evil. In the following cycle of bizarre adventures, dreams, and tales of past and future, the reader meets Mahound, the Prophet of Jahilia, the recipient of a revelation in which satanic verses mingle with divine. "'I told you a long time back,' Gibreel Farishta quietly said, 'that if I thought the sickness would never leave me, that it would always return, I would not be able to bear up to it.' Then, very quickly, before Salahuddin could move a finger, Gobreel put the barrel of the gun into his own mouth; and pulled the trigger; and was free." The character modelled on the Prophet Muhammad and his transcription of the Quran is portrayed in an unconventional light. The quotations from the Quran are composites of the English version of N.J. Dawood and of Maulana Muhammad Ali, with a few touches of Rushdie's own.

The novel was banned in India and South Africa and burned on the streets of Bradford, Yorkshire. When Ayatollah Khomeini called on all zealous Muslims to execute the writer and the publishers of the book, Rushdie was forced into hiding. Also an aide to Khomeini offered a million-dollar reward for Rushdie's death. In 1993 Rushdie's Norwegian publisher William Nygaard was wounded in an attack outside his house. In 1997 the reward was doubled, and the next year the highest Iranian state prosecutor Morteza Moqtadale renewed the death sentence. During this period of fatwa violent protest in India, Pakistan, and Egypt caused several deaths. In 1990 Rushdie published an essay In Good Faith to appease his critics and issued an apology in which he reaffirmed his respect for Islam. However, Iranian clerics did not repudiate their death threat.

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See, he's not even considered a "Muslim" anymore because he won't go with what the Koran really teaches which is "kill the infidel". According to them, he doesn't deserve to live because he feels that way.

(Deleted By Admin)

[sleeplessinseattle]

[FoxURA]

Well said, Well said.

It looks as though one by one, the nations of Europe will have to take terrorism seriously just like Russia was forced to. I just hope it won't take terrorists shooting at their children's backs in order for the European nations to see terrorism as a threat.

[Inatizzy]

[noc]

Ok thanks SIS, I stand corrected on the Germans standing up to the Nazis. The broader point I was trying to make is that not all Germans were Nazis. Just as not all Muslims are Wahabi Sect and do not have the convert or die philosophy.

The Wahabi Muslims are a cult in the Muslim world. The problem is that they are a growing cult that is gaining in popularity. There is also money still coming from the Saudis and others that is pumping into the Madrasas to bring forth new legions of followers.

Even if we could get the moderate Muslims to rise up here it won't do much good. We need the governments over in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the others to help us put an end to the Wahabi schools and radical teachings or we are indeed headed to a war with the entire Muslim world.

Iraq is a good beginning. Lets just hope it helps turn this tide. God help us if it doesn't.

[Me#1You#10]

While you are entitled to your opinions, this topic is becoming overheated and is venturing into areas of contention that are simply inappropriate for this forum.

Please take this conversation elsewhere.

Thanks