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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: Vietnam Myths to be examined at Boston Convention |
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From an article by "Accuracy in Media" at:
http://www.aim.org/guest_column/1800_0_6_0/
| Quote: |
Reality Check for Dems: Examining The Myths of the Vietnam War
By Geoff Metcalf | July 19, 2004
Notwithstanding the John Kerry posturing about how his veteran status
somehow ingratiates him to the veteran community (he served in Vietnam
you know?)…the cold reality is, MOST veterans revile Kerry. There is a
deep-seated, unbridled antipathy that veterans (and especially Vietnam
veterans) hold for the 'man who would be commander in chief'.
If the mainstream media tries to ignore what will be happening during the
week of the DNC, they will have a real hard time denying the liberal /
Democrat label facts in evidence suggest.
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth www.swiftvets.com were the first to come
out noting their mission "is to provide solid factual information relating to
Mr. Kerry's abbreviated tour of duty as a member of Coastal Division 14
and Coast Division 11." They added, "Since many who are involved with
Swiftvets.com themselves had swift boat duty and knew John Kerry
personally, they are in a unique position to provide such information."
There is a long list of veterans who have signed their name to the
organizational mission www.swiftvets.com
And they are not the Lone Ranger. For at least the past three months
Stephen Sherman (the de-facto historian for VN-era Special Forces) has
been putting together a conference including a significant list of Vietnam
era luminaries.
From July 26th-29th (coincidentally concurrent with the Democratic
National Convention in Boston), an unprecedented conference featuring
Vietnam veterans who have authored books about the war and other
scholars and educators will gather at Boston's Simmons College, just
down the road from the DNC Convention.
{Conference organizer} Sherman notes: "As Senator John Kerry is about
to be nominated for President, in great part based on his Vietnam service,
it is important for the American people to understand what 'Vietnam' was
really about and to dispel some of the common misconceptions about why
we went to war, what we did, and what went wrong, and why it mattered."
Sherman has set up a website with most of the particulars:
........................ www.viet-myths.net .............................
Reportedly on the last night of the DNC convention, an undisclosed number
of Vietnam Veterans intend to endorse Kerry. A longer significant list of
others will not.
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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All of you guys and gals who think I'm some kind of left-wing, DNC-funded, anti-veteran whacko might be amused to learn that Steve Sherman gave me a call recently to invite me to participate in the conference in question. I guess he had the impression from reading my books that I'm a right-winger. I am.
I have neither the time nor the funds to get to Boston. Too bad. Somebody needs to be at this conference (which is basically going to present the right-wing view of the Vietnam War) to speak up for those combat veterans who came to a different conclusion than most of their compadres about the war and joined the VVAW.
They really weren't all just a bunch of frauds and liars, and need to have the integrity of their service defended, if not their politics. (What am I talking about? Go to my threads, "Joe Conason's charges against the SBVFT" and "this website is fueled by lies and innuendo (part two)".)
Keith Nolan |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just a little quick googling yields the following
http://www.veteransunitedforkerry.com/vote/index.php
Blog Started in March 0 posts
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veteransforkerry/
8 members.
http://vets4bush.com/
Over 4700 signatures.
This Site.
I guess, Mr. Nolan, That Veterans supporting Kerry don’t know about the Internet.
You are a very misguided man, Mr Nolan. You can check wintersoldier yourself but with about 46000 votes 96% are against Kerry.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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ASPB, just what exactly am I misguided aboutt? Most people in this country (and that includes veterans) are fairly conservative in their politics and lifestyles. Most veterans are so conservative, in fact, that they support Bush deleted by Moderator over Kerry. deleted by Moderator
So, yeah, I know that most veterans are conservative. I've certainly gotten enough hate mail from conservative vets since getting involved in this website to prove that point!
I've never said that Kerry has the veterans vote. I've never said that Kerry would make a good President and CIC. All I've ever said was that the evidence shows that he served honorably in Vietnam, and that he had every right to turn against the war and join the VVAW. In addition, I've said that a few phonies aside, most of the VVAW members were genuine combat veterans of Vietnam.
deleted by Moderator
So, again, what am I so misguided about? By the way, talk to you again over at the "Joe Conason" thread. No reason to be debating in two places.
KWN |
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Theresa Alwood
Rear Admiral
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 631
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Nolan
Please remember you do not speak for us Vets, we speak for ourselves and we are speaking rather clearly and loudly on this website. We do not support John Kerry. You may want to pick and choose the vets you wish to hear from...but you refuse to listen to the vets who are on this site. Our votes are being cast for George W. Bush. It is just like the liberal left to only want to pick and choose a select few rather than the listen to the masses! |
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Indianbaboon
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Nolan, if you don't see how VVAW both made our civilians hate our troops AND gave aid and comfort to the enemy (their own words were used as torture in POW camps), then apparently you're not as smart as all your connections make you seem.
Can you honestly say that VVAW did not create an anti-soldier sentiment? can you tell me that VVAW did not bolster the NVA and, inadvertently, torture the POWs? |
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:17 am Post subject: |
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TO INDIANBABOON: if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that dissent in time of war (even a war as screwed-up, fouled-up, mismanaged, and ugly as the Vietnam War) is tantamount to treason.
You also seem to be saying that if a Vietnam veteran saw things in the war that turned him off, or if he simply believed the whole stinking mess was a waste of American lives, he had no right to join an organization like the VVAW.
The VVAW might have contributed to the general anti-military mood in the country (by speaking in public about things they saw), but there wouldn't have been an anti-military mood in the country already if not for Medina, Calley, and the massive civilian casualties associated with General Westmoreland's search-and-destroy strategy.
Were POWs tortured because of the VVAW? No. The communists in Hanoi systematically tortured down aviators between 1964 and 1969. The thugs in control of the enemy prison system also murdered a number of American POWs. According to the testimony given in 1973 by the returned POWs, the communists brought the torture to a halt in 1969. The VVAW staged its protests in 1971. Did the communists use VVAW testimony in an attempt to demoralize their POWs. Of course.
It's not the fault of the VVAW or the anti-war movement in general that communists do not understand the value of give and take in a free society.
KWN |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | TO INDIANBABOON: if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that dissent in time of war (even a war as screwed-up, fouled-up, mismanaged, and ugly as the Vietnam War) is tantamount to treason. |
There is a big difference between dissent concerning a governments policies and openly lying, spreading false accusations, organizing events based on lies and false accusations, accusing American military fighting men of being murderers, rapists, babykillers, committing atrocities and war crimes on a routine daily basis. People like John Kerry and others in the anti-war movement outright lied in order to convince the American People to be against the Vietnam War and the Government here in the United States that was keeping us in that war. They hurt this nation deeply with their lies, their aiding and abetting the enemy, their collaberation with the enemy, and above all, their lies and false accusations about the military men over in southeast asia during the Vietnam War hurt this nations Veterans for over 30 years. And their attitude is still with us in today's society and anti-war movement. They are using the same lies and false accusations against our troops coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as serving here in the USA.
| Quote: | | You also seem to be saying that if a Vietnam veteran saw things in the war that turned him off, or if he simply believed the whole stinking mess was a waste of American lives, he had no right to join an organization like the VVAW. |
Many Vietnam Veterans came back and protested the war. Many Vietnam Veterans came back and spoke the truth about our government and the injustice of the Vietnam War. Many Vietnam Veterans were against the war, and let it be known. But, less than 5% of the returning Vietnam Veterans ever engaged in anti-war activities, or joined organizations like the VVAW. Yes, there were honest Veterans in the VVAW who joined because they were against the war, and wanted to end it. Many of them joined protests and marches.
But, very few of them did what the leaders of VVAW and other anti-war groups did. The majority of Vietnam Veterans did not accuse their fellow Veterans of committing rape, murder, war crimes and atrocities on a routine daily basis. They did not lie, and make up things to turn the American Media and People against the Vietnam Veterans that had already returned, or were still in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand still serving and fighting, or those in POW camps in North Vietnam. They supported their brothers.
| Quote: | | The VVAW might have contributed to the general anti-military mood in the country (by speaking in public about things they saw), but there wouldn't have been an anti-military mood in the country already if not for Medina, Calley, and the massive civilian casualties associated with General Westmoreland's search-and-destroy strategy. |
Not 'might have' but they did contribute greatly to the anti-military mood in the country, just as much as the other anti-war activitists and groups did. These people and the anti-war media managed to convince the majority of the American People that American Vietnam Veterans were murderers, killers, rapists, baby killers, war criminals, committing atrocities, on a daily routine basis. That was out and out lies, false accusations, and made up testimony purposely designed to turn this nation against our troops. And it worked.
Were there Vietnam Veterans that engaged in atrocities, murder, war crimes, rapes, etc.? Yes there were, and that happens in all wars, and is engaged in by both sides. But the level of this by the NVA and VietCong was 100 to 1 as that conducted by the Veterans. What John Kerry, the VVAW and others did was to convince the American People that this was happening on a routine regular day to day basis, and was being conducted by the majority of GI's over in southeast Asia. In reality, less than 30% of the Veterans serving in southeast asia in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand ever saw actual combat.
But each and every one of us has had to live with the reputation put on us by John Kerry and others for over 30 years.
| Quote: | | Were POWs tortured because of the VVAW? No. The communists in Hanoi systematically tortured down aviators between 1964 and 1969. The thugs in control of the enemy prison system also murdered a number of American POWs. According to the testimony given in 1973 by the returned POWs, the communists brought the torture to a halt in 1969. The VVAW staged its protests in 1971. Did the communists use VVAW testimony in an attempt to demoralize their POWs. Of course. |
You haven't read your history very well on this one. There have been numerous POW's that have testified and written books that they admit the actions of the anti-war groups, including the VVAW contributed to torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese. The direct actions of those that visited North Vietnam with Jane Fonda, as well as Jane Fonda's actions herself directly caused POW's to be tortured, and to endure cruel and unusual treatment.
| Quote: | | It's not the fault of the VVAW or the anti-war movement in general that communists do not understand the value of give and take in a free society. |
That's a real stupid statement, and means nothing to this conversation. You are fighting a losing battle here, and you will not win on this site. You may love John F. Kerry, but we do not, and we never, ever will support him.
Friggin War Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:59 am Post subject: |
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War Dog, that anecdote about POWs being tortured as a result of Jane Fonda's infamous visit to Hanoi is an urban legend. Never happened.
And please don't call me a fan of Hanoi Jane because I pointed this out. I'm not. I'm not a fan of Senator Kerry, either.
KWN |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:05 am Post subject: |
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You are wrong Keith, and I will find you the proof. I won't do it tonight, as I must get to bed, 4:30 comes early, and I must work tomorrow.
Friggin War Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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Indianbaboon
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:45 am Post subject: |
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War Dog, you make my life easy.
Keith, I have a lot of liberal friends. I have a lot that openly protest and I generally openly counter-protest visibly, angrily, and well. But there's a difference between civilized protest and dissent and the crap that VVAW did. You know this, i think, because you do appear to be an intelligent individual. THere is dissent, and there is disrespect, and there is harmful disrespect. VVAW falls into the latter category. |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan wrote: | War Dog, that anecdote about POWs being tortured as a result of Jane Fonda's infamous visit to Hanoi is an urban legend. Never happened.
And please don't call me a fan of Hanoi Jane because I pointed this out. I'm not. I'm not a fan of Senator Kerry, either.
KWN |
That's just flat wrong Keith. Michael Benge was tortured after Fonda's visit. Perhaps others.
You no doubt are referring to the clever blend of fact and fiction that was circulated as originally sent by Charles "Skip" Klingman.
I have spent five years working with the POW and other vets to debunk the original story, while striving to preserve that which is fact.
The first part of the phony story alleged that during Jane Fonda's real visit to North Vietnam in 1972 several American POW tried to pass their identity (social security numbers) to her on tiny slips of paper, but that Fonda passed the little notes to the POW's captors, who then proceeded to brutally beat several of the POW. One of the prisoners supposedly beaten was Col. Larry Carrigan. One version of the story also mentions Col. Jerry Driscoll, USAF (Ret) in the beating scenes. Both Col. Carrigan and Col. Driscoll have denied this account through Captain McGrath and others.
The second part of the bogus Fonda e-mail is an account from Michael Benge. Mr. Benge personally confirmed to me that this part of the e-mail is correct. After being asked if he would like to meet with Jane Fonda, Benge told his captors he would tell Fonda "...about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as 'humane and lenient.'" Benge said that when the Vietnamese found out his intentions; "I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel re-bar placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped."
Col. Jerry Driscoll repudiated the bogus portions of the story again on a segment of C-SPAN Book TV as NAM-POWs hosted a speech by Henry Holzer and Erika Holzer in Texas (May 25, 2002). The
Holzer's discussed their book "Aid and Comfort" Jane Fonda in North Vietnam.
I believe that there are other accounts of POW mistreatment and torture following Fonda's visit that have not been repudiated by the POW, but I am not prepared to discuss those now.
I have a web page that discusses the bogus Jane Fonda POW story that is just about as good as any of the others on the web -
http://vikingphoenix.com/military/JaneFonda/boguspowstory.htm
Mike Benge's opposition to John F. Kerry is very clear, see
http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/
The Jane Fonda, SSN, POW beating story is one of those clever blends of fact and fiction used to create gray propaganda that is so effective and so unique that it belongs in the same category as Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. See "Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 911 by Dave Kopel" http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan wrote: | Were POWs tortured because of the VVAW? No. The communists in Hanoi systematically tortured down aviators between 1964 and 1969. The thugs in control of the enemy prison system also murdered a number of American POWs. According to the testimony given in 1973 by the returned POWs, the communists brought the torture to a halt in 1969. The VVAW staged its protests in 1971. Did the communists use VVAW testimony in an attempt to demoralize their POWs. Of course.
It's not the fault of the VVAW or the anti-war movement in general that communists do not understand the value of give and take in a free society.
KWN |
If the communists brought the torture to a halt in 1969, why are there POW saying they were tortured after 1969, Michael Benge for one?
I disagree that VVAW and the anti-war movement are not at fault.
The mildest thing I can say is that it is the fault of the VVAW and the anti-war movement in general that they did not take into consideration the invigorating effect their dissent would have in encouraging the communists to resist.
There is the statement of the Romanian spy chief Ion Mihai Pacepa that John Kerry's vitriol was repeated by KGB propagandists in Europe, and KGB vitriol became Kerry vitriol and antiwar vitriol and the two fed off each other and according to Pacepa, KGB chief Yuri Andropov bragged about having damaged the U.S. foreign-policy consensus, poisoned domestic debate in the U.S., and built a credibility gap between America and European public opinion through our disinformation operations. Vietnam was, he once told me, 'our most significant success', said Pacepa.
And then there is the gratitude of the North Vietnamese communists that at the present time still acknowledge the contributions of John Kerry and the antiwar activists in their war museum. There is also Bui Tin who told Americans "Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9:00 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war, and that she would struggle along with us." - Bui Tin, Colonel, People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN), author of Following Ho Chi Minh: The Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel, as printed in a Wall Street Journal article, Thursday August 3, 1995.
It has to be hard to swallow, but VVAW was part of that antiwar movement whose successes were cheered by Bui Tin and the other Vietnamese communist leaders.
It pains me to say it -- because I sincerely believe that some, perhaps many, if not most VVAW members served bravely and honorably -- but with the rally at Valley Forge, and Winter Soldier and other activities VVAW blurred the lines and in many respects became indistinguishable from Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and the worst of the antiwar activists. The VVAW became tools of subversion.
Perhaps the communists could understand the value of the "give and take" of our American political system, which they interpreted their way as an invitation to push on, taking full advantage of the confusion caused by the dissent promoted by VVAW and the antiwar groups.
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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arjr111
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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KeithNolan wrote:
| Quote: | | Were POWs tortured because of the VVAW? No. |
So if I understand Mr. Nolan correctly, he is implying that Kerry's group had little effect on how POW were treated. Perhaps, in retrospect he believes WAW was formenting in a vacuum.
Considering the remarks of General Giap, regarding the effects of the WAW on the moral of the NVA, Mr. Nolans assertions smell like liberal revisionism.
| Quote: | | The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him achieve victory. |
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/10/222651.shtml
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| arjr111 wrote: | KeithNolan wrote:
| Quote: | | Were POWs tortured because of the VVAW? No. |
So if I understand Mr. Nolan correctly, he is implying that Kerry's group had little effect on how POW were treated. Perhaps, in retrospect he believes WAW was formenting in a vacuum.
Considering the remarks of General Giap, regarding the effects of the WAW on the moral of the NVA, Mr. Nolans assertions smell like liberal revisionism.
| Quote: | | The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him achieve victory. |
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/10/222651.shtml |
Well, some kind of revisionism anyway, or wishful thinking.
Take care "arjr111" lest your reference to General Giap saying such things as the quote above draws fire. Earlier this year this story was attacked with considerable success and contested back and forth up and down the field, torn down to parade rest in a manner of speaking. The critics of the NewsMax piece say that Giap never said it, but I don't worry too much about that, since Bui Tin has said it for him, and nobody disputes that Bui Tin was a Hanoi insider, and nobody disputes that Bui Tin was there when the NVA tank knocked down the gates April 30, 1975 in Saigon and nobody can dispute Bui Tin really wrote his book and gave interviews.
On the other hand, Pacepa, the Romanian spy chief and Yuri Andropov, then head of the KGB, give credit to John Kerry and the antiwar activists for aiding the Moscow directed effort and the Hanoi communists.
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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