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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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neverforget wrote: | I stated my veteran credentials in the Veteran's Only sticky above.
I only want to make a six-part comment:
1. I had the honor of listening to the commander (before Kerry) of swift boat #94 a couple of months ago;
2. He stated unequivocally that Kerry, in his biography, "Tour of Duty" by Douglas Brinkley, attributed to himself many of the exploits of the previous commander of swift boat #94, that is, he said he participated in events that either took place before he got to Vietnam or occurred when he was in a different part of the country;
3. The only source of this information for Brinkley was Kerry himself;
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I believe you've got this wrong . . to a degree. I don't think what you stated is in Brinkley's book (I don't have it, but if someone does . . . fat chance, right?), but as the Boston Globe's article just posted states -- on Kerry's website.
And I don't believe the "only source" was Kerry himself. I'm thinking it was the raft of Navy documents that were received by Kerry's people, and then posted on the website and/or summerized incorrectly.
The action mentioned was in the area that Kerry was to spend a major portion of his 4 month tour.
As the Boston Globe article states, quoting one of Kerry's commanders:
"I think somebody made a mistake who doesn't know" the timing of Kerry's service, Elliott said. Kerry was skipper of boat No. 44 in December and January before taking over command of the 94, he said.
Doug |
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abartholomaus Seaman Recruit
Joined: 18 Jul 2004 Posts: 16
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: hmm.. |
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The web site no longer says anything about Kerry being involved with the events of the 26th of January. In the Chronology of the unit, there is mention of boats # 94 and 66 going up The Song Ong Doc, but there is no reference to Kerry being on board.If there was a dispute, I think the record has been set straight.
Are there any disputes over his Silver Star, and Bronze star? 13 March, and 28 March respectively. I've heard all the crap about weather his purple hearts were justified or not. I'm more interested in how he risked his life.
I've read quite a bit about the stuff that was said against McCain, and the stuff against Kerry sounds of a similar vein.
It seems that Kerry was engaged in one week of really intense stuff, had three close misses, and had enough.
Thanks for posting the articles and web sites. I like evidence like that. _________________ http://andyhome.webhop.org
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abartholomaus Seaman Recruit
Joined: 18 Jul 2004 Posts: 16
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Me#1You#10 Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004 Posts: 6503
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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DougReese wrote: | And I don't believe the "only source" was Kerry himself. I'm thinking it was the raft of Navy documents that were received by Kerry's people, and then posted on the website and/or summerized incorrectly. |
One might wonder when the raft will float close enough to shore to allow a closer scrutiny of it's construction by interested parties.
Quote: | "I think somebody made a mistake who doesn't know" the timing of Kerry's service, Elliott said. Kerry was skipper of boat No. 44 in December and January before taking over command of the 94, he said. |
While his discretion is commendable, it sheds little daylight on the reality of Kerry's tenure on PCF44.
From Kerry's website:
Quote: | December 1968 through January 1969 – Kerry commands PCF-44 |
Wow...2 entire months in command of PCF44! Interesting feat considering the fact that PCF44 was a Coastal 11 craft and Kerry spent 6 days in December and possibly 2 weeks or so in January in Coastal 11. The last estimate is a pure guess, as Page 1 of his fitrep from Coastal 13, which would have established his Coastal 11 tenure, appears to be MIA.
Quite "creative" I'd say.
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Me#1You#10 Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004 Posts: 6503
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yet more "creativity"?
His website falsely reports the location of Coastal 13.
Coastal 13 was based in Cat Lo, not Cam Ranh Bay as his website claims:
The location of Coastal 13 in Cat Lo (Vung Tau) is documented here:
http://swiftboats.net/extras/commands.htm#div13 |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Me#1You#10 wrote: | Yet more "creativity"?
His website falsely reports the location of Coastal 13.
Coastal 13 was based in Cat Lo, not Cam Ranh Bay as his website claims:
The location of Coastal 13 in Cat Lo (Vung Tau) is documented here:
http://swiftboats.net/extras/commands.htm#div13 |
The funny thing is according to Tour of Duty, Kerry Left Cam Rahn (14) for An Toi (11) on the 44 boat along with Peck on the 57 Boat on 06 Dec 68. The book gets "very" vague about dates with no reference to a transfer to Cat Lo (13), nor does it note when Kerry was relieved of duty on the 44 boat. Can anyone determine if the 44 boat was reassigned to Catlo sometime in January? With or without Kerry?
As Peck was wounded on the 94 in 11's AO on 29 Jan 69 and the boat had taken a RPG round in the deckhouse, it's unlikely Kerry got 94 until early in February.
For what its worth! What's really weird is all this boat swapping. I was in country for a full year. I had my first boat from Nov 68 until March of 69 when it was turned over to the Viets. I then commanded a two boat patrol group with the same two boats for the balance of my tour. _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Me#1You#10 Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004 Posts: 6503
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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ASPB wrote: | What's really weird is all this boat swapping. |
...or, perhaps, all this Kerry swapping. |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Me#1You#10 wrote: | ASPB wrote: | What's really weird is all this boat swapping. |
...or, perhaps, all this Kerry swapping. |
Jeez, no room for subtlety around here is there? _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Me#1You#10 Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004 Posts: 6503
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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ASPB wrote: |
Jeez, no room for subtlety around here is there? |
Sorry, but since the thread was also referencing the re-assignment of PCF's, I felt your "subtlety" a bit too unclear for my taste. |
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abartholomaus Seaman Recruit
Joined: 18 Jul 2004 Posts: 16
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: creativity. |
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So in those last 6 posts between ASPB and Me#1you#10 we have established that it is a mystery where Kerry was for the first two months he was the skipper. You guys definiately confused me. I'm not used to the names of the rivers. Cat Lo this or Cam Ranh that.
I don't know what that insinuates. Maybe the commanders didn't like him and put him out of harms reach. Maybe he came off as an over educated snob and they tried placing him with a crew that would accept him, or maybe the paper work got screwed up (like that never happens in the military). Personally, I don't think any of that really matters when it comes down to how he performed under pressure.
Eventually he was put in charge of #94, and that is where he proved his salt on the record. I'm wondering if there is any dispute about what he did on that Boat. February through March he encountered the real combat.
Conspiracy theories are usually a load of bull, because you can make up anything to rationalize a theory. Where's the proof? He's got a bunch of paperwork that supports him, and most of his crew mates support his campaign. So there must be a Kernal of truth, right? _________________ http://andyhome.webhop.org
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here's an analysis from a while back. I know that bandit is working on updating based on FOIA requests. He'll be along in a little while to talk about it I'm sure. And yes, there are questions also about the facts surroundin "thorn ***** Purple Hearts" and the Bronze star as well.
Conspiracy Theory--! No--A search the thruth---yes.
Did Sen. Kerry Earn A Silver Star? Evidence Says No.
by The Bandit
The events of February 28, 1969 that lead to Senator John F. Kerry being awarded the Silver Star is analyzed. Action by Lt.(jg) Kerry on the 28th of February can be broken into two distinct combat engagements, which I will refer to as events A and B.
Event A consisted of three swift boats whose mission was to insert some 70 VN Marines (Kerry tells of 70 VN's, while Zumwalt mentions 30 VN troops per boat in the first Silver Star citation) for the purpose of sweeping an area where small arms fire were encountered by the same three swift boats the previous day.
Event B occurs 800 yards further up river from "Event A" shortly after Kerry had inserted VN troops. It is "Event B" where Kerry encounters a lone enemy VC with a B-40 rocket launcher and kills him behind a hooch (or so the Silver Star citation claims.)
Overview/Analysis
To begin with, I did not have access or have seen the official after-action report for February 28, 1969 since it was never provided as part of the other after-action reports released for February and March by Senator Kerry. Thus, I am reduced to relying on Vice Admiral Zumwalt's original signed citation for Kerry's Silver Star along with an after action description provided by John Kerry for President Campaign, which may or may not be completely accurate.
The mission for the three swift boats for the 28th of February was to return to the are in which they received rocket fire from the day before, with some 70 VN troops to insert for the purpose of sweeping the area for Viet Cong soldiers and supply caches. It is clear that Kerry's mission from the beginning was to beach along the shore so troops could disembark for the operation. According to Senator Kerry's official public released version: as the three swift boats approached the shore, "more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran" and were quickly overrun when the VN troops disembarked from the swifts that had transported them to shoreline.
Notice that Kerry refers to 20 Viet Cong troops standing up and running, which seems rather odd for VC to simply run without putting up resistance since this is their home turf and troops were still onboard the swifts (sitting ducks.) Usually because of the noise the swifts boats make, the VC would have been alerted of their presence before they would have reached the shore, giving the enemy time to flee or prepare to engage the boats. I am wondering if perhaps maybe these were simply civilians and not VC troops. Obviously if we are only dealing with approx. 20 enemy troops, one has to wonder why Kerry's Silver Star citations (there is three of them) refer to encountering "numerically superior force" since the swift boats inserted far greater numbers of VN troops then the reported number of enemy VC encountered.
In any case, "Event A" went smoothly and none of the good guys got hurt. We don't find any actions on part of Lt.(jg) Kerry that rises to "gallantry" or "Valor for this engagement since it is clear the VN troops had the situation well under control and Lt.(jg) Kerry did not play any part in the shore operations other then to transport and insert the troops and perhaps provide fire power if needed.
At some point while "Event A" was under way, Kerry claims he was alerted by an "Army advisor" to enemy activity approx. 800 yards further up river. It is unknown how the Army advisor learned that there was enemy activity 800 yard further up the stream. Lt.(jg) Kerry departed the scene along with PCF-23 to travel up river to investigate. In an April 12, 2004 USA Today article, writer Andrea Stone writes that upon "Hearing shots ahead, Kerry headed farther up the river, where his boat was attacked a second time.
The question arises then; who was shooting at who further up river?
Upon arriving approx. 800 yards from "Event A," a grenade from a B-40 was fired and narrowly missed Kerry's swift boat. Lt.(jg) Kerry then describes how he ordered his swift boat to turn and beach itself in front of the source of the rocket attack. Upon the swift beaching along the shoreline, a VC soldier with a B-40 launcher is observed standing up from either a spider hole or ditch (crewmember Fred Short description) no more then ten feet from Kerry's beached swift boat and begins to run away.
In an article printed in the October 1996 edition of The New Yorker, Kerry was asked about this encounter with the VC soldier:
"It was either going to be him or it was going to be us. It was that simple. I don't know why it wasn't us, I mean, to this day. He had a rocket pointed right at our boat. He stood up out of the hole, and none of us saw him until he was standing in front of us, aiming a rocket right at us, and, for whatever reason, he didn't pull the trigger he turned and ran. He was shocked to see our boat right in front of him. If he'd pulled the trigger, we'd all be dead . . . I just won't talk about all of it. I don't and I can't. The things that probably really turn me I've never told anybody. Nobody would understand," Kerry said.
Puzzling why Senator Kerry did not mention the fact the enemy soldier had already been hit and knocked down by the swifts forward gunner's M-60. Lt.(jg) Kerry's forward gunner, Tom Belodeau, fired at the fleeing VC soldier with his M-60 and hits him in the leg and he falls. Kerry recalled this incident to the Boston Globe as follows:
"...Tommy clipped him, and he started going [down.] I thought it was over," Kerry said.
Two very different versions. Hard to imagine someone recalling such an event and leaving out the fact he had observed a man hit by M-60 fire and dropped. Apparently the soldier was not seriously wounded and was able to get up and continue running while still carrying a loaded B-40. It is some what confusing to understand why a wounded soldier so close to a beached swift boat - after being hit and knocked down - would choose to pick up his B-40 and continue running with it. We get conflicting versions from the witnesses to what exactly happens next.
Fred Short, as the boat's tub gunner with the best view recalled during an April 2003 Kerry campaign event in Little Rock, Arkansas, said his twin 50-caliber machine gun couldn't tilt low enough to shoot a Viet Cong soldier lying in a ditch, aiming a rocket launcher at their boat.
"We were in a small canal and normally we would have tried to exit, but Mr. Kerry ordered us to charge," Short said. "While I shot high, he [Kerry] and Tommy Belodeau charged under me, right at the guy, and we routed them. That's why Mr. Kerry won the Silver Star."
Additionally, Short recalled the following in June of 2003 to the Boston Globe:
"I laid in fire with the twin .50s, and he [VC soldier] got behind a hooch," recalled Short. "I laid 50 rounds in there, and Mr. Kerry went in. Rounds were coming everywhere. We were getting fire from both sides of the river. It was a canal. We were receiving fire from the opposite bank, also, and there was no way I could bring my guns to bear on that."
Then in a recent (April 18, 2004) Cox News Service article by Mike Williams, Short is quoted as follows:
"Mr. Kerry charged the heaviest fire," gunner's mate Fred Short recalled. "Our boat beached 10 to 15 feet from a VC who had a rocket-propelled grenade. He was too close to fire it, so he ran and dropped down in a small stream bed." Kerry immediately jumped off the boat in pursuit, his M-16 rifle in hand, Short said.
"Bullets were flying everywhere," he said. "It was total chaos. Mr.Kerry went up to the top of the embankment and saw the guy preparing to fire his grenade launcher, so he took him out. I have no doubt that if he had not done so, I would not be talking to you today."
Now suddenly we have Kerry going up an embankment and not behind a hooch.
Apparently, Tom Belodeau was not the only one chasing after Kerry and the fleeing VC soldier because rear gunner, Michael Medeiros, indicated in a 1996 press conference with Senator Kerry (by telephone) that he was also chasing after Senator Kerry and the fleeing VC soldier and stated at the time that he did not see Lt.(jg) Kerry kill him, but had no doubt that the senator did so. "The only one that was there was Senator Kerry," Medeiros said.
But in Douglas Brinkley's new book, "Tour of Duty," Medeiros has a different version.
"With my adrenaline racing, I started following him off the boat," Medeiros recalls in Brinkley's book. "So I was right behind him. . . .As the VC guerrilla got 20 or 30 meters down the path, just about in front of a lean-to, the (future) senator shot the guy. He had been standing on both feet with a loaded rocket launcher about to fire. He fell over dead."
So now we have the VC soldier either running down a path, running up an embankment or running behind the old hooch and meeting his fate at the hands of Kerry while out of sight from the others (according to Kerry's Silver Star citation and Fred Short.) It is odd that, Michael Medeiros, now recently has a new detailed ring-side seat to the killing of the VC soldier by Lt.(jg) Kerry. Even more strange is the fact Short and Medeiros makes no mention Kerry killing the VC soldier behind a hooch in more recent versions of their eye-witness accounts - and now suggesting it was in plain sight for all to observe. Doesn't appear Douglas Brinkley paid any attention to details of events he wrote about in his book.
Interesting that Kerry and his gunner's could disembark from their boat so quickly to give chase behind Kerry without any concern for the possibility of additional nearby hidden enemy soldiers who could have taken them all out in the open or from the fire Fred Short reported they were taking from the opposite bank. If we believe all accounts, no one would have been on the shore chasing a VC soldier with snipers and bullets flying in all directions.
The Silver Star citation describes the pursuit of this enemy VC this way: "beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position, and personally lead a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy." I am assuming that Kerry's gunner(s) who had ran behind him is this so-called landing party because of the fact there was no troops aboard Kerry's boat. The trouble here is that this is against standard operating procedures for swift boat operations. Crewmembers were under standing orders to never leave their boat for any reason to engage the enemy in a combat zone.
CNN transcripts for April 24, 2001 records the explanation Senator Kerry gave CNN's Jonathan Karl for his decision to beach and disembark his swift boat:
KARL: Kerry received the highest honor awarded in Vietnam, the Silver Star, for his actions as a commander of a swift boat that came under fire on a river in the Mekong delta. The Silver Star citation says an enemy soldier sprang up less than 10 feet from Kerry's boat and fled. The citation reads, quote: "Kerry pursued the man behind a hooch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."
KERRY: "On that particular day [February 28th, 1969], I heard the ambush, I heard the firepower, and I made the judgment. Besides, we were very heavily weighted down. We had troops on board. We couldn't reach maximum speed. I knew that to whatever degree we were in the ambush, we were going to get hurt, so I turned the aspect of us toward it, minimizing our exposure, surprising them, and we did win. I mean, we ran right over the ambush, and it felt good to win."
KARL: And do you ever think about the person that was firing on you, who you ultimately chased down and killed and grabbed that live rocket launcher?
KERRY: Yeah, I mean, sometimes in the balance you do, but as I said, not with the sense of guilt. I mean, it was him or me, and I wouldn't be standing here today if it had been otherwise.
But this cannot be true, because during an October 1996 press conference with former crewmember, Tom Belodeau, whom appeared to defend Senator Kerry against charges he may have committed a war crime act by killing an already wounded enemy soldier - stood beside Kerry and stated "The soldier that Sen. John Kerry shot was standing on both feet with a loaded rocket launcher, about to fire it on the boat from which (Lt.(jg) Kerry) had just left, which still had four men aboard," Mr. Belodeau said.
Tom Belodeau makes it clear there was no troops - and we already know why - because the troops that were onboard Lt.(jg) Kerry's swift boat had been offloaded 800 yards down river to conduct sweep operations prior to Kerry's arrival. Additionally, it doesn't help Kerry's case to suggest he was referring to "Event A" because his mission was to beach and insert troops to engage however many enemy soldiers that may have been discovered. Furthermore, Jonathan Karl was very specific about the events he was talking to Senator Kerry about, i.e., "enemy soldier sprang up less than 10 feet from Kerry's boat and fled." Obviously there can be no confusion in Kerry's mind over what events Karl was addressing.
It is possible Senator Kerry invented this new twist to justify violating standing orders to never beach and leave his boat in a combat zone.
Whatever his reason is, we can be confident his version is flawed from what has been officially documented After Lt.(jg) Kerry allegedly kills the lone fleeing VC soldier behind a hooch, Kerry goes on to describe the following from his own public version of the events:
"Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swift boats. "
Where did these troops magically come from since they were busy with a sweeping operation 800 yards down river? Did they walk or Kerry go pick them up and return with them? Unfortunately Senator Kerry has not released any official after-action reports for this operation that could clear up these kind of questions. This of course raises another question: Why hasn't Senator Kerry released the official after-action reports for February 28, 1969?
Neither Kerry nor any of his crewmembers have ever publicly mentioned or referred to VN Marines involved in this secondary operation. At this point we can safely assert that there was no action on Lt.(jg) Kerry's part that qualifies as "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action" for the Silver Star. The only medal I see Lt.(jg) Kerry's actions called for is the medal of stupidity. Under United States Navy regulations the only thing Lt.(jg) Kerry deserved to be awarded was a general court martial for violating standing orders and by placing his boat and crew at grave risk. The US Navy was not in the habit of awarding officers the Silver Star for disregarding orders and killing fleeing wounded soldiers behind hooch's while leaving their boat beached and taking fire from all directions.
Why Was Kerry Awarded the Silver Star?
In 1996 Senator Kerry was outraged by a column questioning the circumstances of his killing of the lone enemy soldier who had pointed a rocket launcher at his boat. Writer David Warsh for a Boston newspaper, noted that such a "coup de grace" would have been considered a war crime if the soldier had already been wounded. What followed was truly revealing.
Senator Kerry arranged a news conference at the Courageous Sailing Center in the Charlestown Navy Yard. Those who attended on Kerry's behalf was very interesting. They were none other then retired Admiral Zumwalt himself, who commanded U.S. naval forces in Vietnam; Capt. George Elliott, Kerry's CO at the time; retired Cmdr. Adrian Longsdale, who commanded shoreline operations at the time; Tom Belodeau, one of Kerry's gunners who had fired at the enemy soldier and knocked him down with his M-60. Participating by phone from San Francisco was Michael Medeiros, who was the rear gunner on Kerry's boat.
Amazing how willing and quickly they came together to defend Kerry that day - but I don't believe in reality they were not there to defend Kerry per se, but to protect a 30 year old secret and themselves. Kerry's superior officer's did not follow Navy protocol in awarding him the Silver Star, and they clearly not have been making accurate statements of the allege events that lead to the awarding of the medal ever since.
It all may well have remained a secret, known only to them, if it was not for some comments by Admiral Zumwalt recorded by Associated Press writer Glen Johnson:
Mr. Zumwalt also said he wanted to recommend Sen. Kerry for an even higher medal, the Navy Cross, but approval would have taken too long. Instead, he personally approved a Silver Star and sped along the award to improve morale at a time his sailors were taking heavy casualties.
Zumwalt's comments about wanting to award the Navy Cross to Kerry makes absolutely no sense because Kerry's allege actions no-where meets the the standards for such an award. Why did he suggest this? Because I think he wanted to remove doubts that Kerry may not have deserved the Silver Star, which would had drawn attention to why the medal was even awarded in the first place - clearly something Zumwalt would not want to draw attention to since, in affect, he awarded the Silver Star to Kerry for chasing down a lone fleeing wounded VC - killing him behind a hooch - all the while disregarding every standing order he was operating under and placing his four man crew in a position that could easily have lead them to being killed.
The most telling of all is Admiral Zumwalt's suggestion that he was motivated to award Senator Kerry as a means to "improve morale." This I think is an honest appraisal of the entire Kerry Silver Star episode - Kerry was not awarded for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action" on February 28, 1969, but given the Silver Star by Admiral Zumwalt in attempts of improving moral (Kerry became his Rambo poster-boy.)
I think maybe Kerry helped his case in the eye's of his commanding officer, George Elliot and Admiral Zumwalt by returning to base with a tall tall of how he had come face to face with an enemy soldier who held the life of him and his crew in his hands while pointing a B-40 at their boat from point blank range - Lt.(jg) Kerry jumps off the boat and runs him down and kills him single handily.
It's a great story, but unfortunately most likely a false story. If indeed there really was a VC soldier with a B-40 rocket launcher encountered, it is most likely was a empty launcher because he had already fired a rocket at Kerry's boat and missed. As soon as he fired he was too busy taking cover from the incoming fire from PCF-94's gun's. The fact there was no more rockets encountered after the first rocket was fired and missed suggest this lone VC was the only enemy with a B-40, otherwise Kerry would have certainty received more rockets fired his way after he was beached on the shoreline.
There is another fact that leads me to believe that perhaps this incident was not as dramatic as Senator Kerry and his crew wants us to believe.
Reporter Charles Sennott once wrote that Senator Kerry was so "focused on his future ambitions," that not long after the fight, he bought a Super-8 movie camera, returned to the scene, and reenacted the skirmish on film. During their interview, Kerry played the tape for Sennott. Apparently Senator Kerry had strong reason to believe that he and his crew would not be entering an angry hornets nest of hostile Viet Cong soldiers on their return to the scene of where the lone VC soldier was encountered to film an reenactment with an 8mm camera.
Then there is Senator Kerry's own record of misinterpreting his military actions.
For example, he reported that on December 2, 1968 he received a wound from enemy activity and requested his own Purple Heart for the wound shortly afterwards to his CO, Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard. Purple Hearts are only awarded for wounds inflicted by hostile enemy actions, and the wound generally had to fairly significant before a doctor or corpsman would be willing to recommend a solder for the Purple Heart. No one wanted a Purple Heart for a band-aid wound when other's were receiving wounds that required stitches or pints of blood to treat - or worst - had died in order to receive the medal.
Consequently, Hibbard denied Kerry his Purple Heart request.
Because Kerry received a very minor piece of shrapnel from a mortar round that was fired from his boat and had ricochet back and caught him in the arm - and for which Kerry later told Douglas Brinkley in his book "Tour of Duty" that the incident in question did not qualify as combat - Kerry's wound did not meet the minimal requirements for the authorizing of a Purple Heart.
Yet Lt.(jg) Kerry persisted knowing he was not wounded by enemy fire and some four months later, through persistence, finally received the medal. Kerry told USA Today that he recall's "someone raising a question" about the award. If he asked for the award, he says, it was because he didn't realize Purple Hearts were given automatically and not at the discretion of commanders. "They decided to award it," he says. "I'm not going to rehash a judgment made by the Navy 35 years ago."
Only problem with Kerry's above explanation is this: Once Hibbard had denied him his request for the Purple Heart, Lt.(jg) Kerry would had immediately been aware at that point that Purple Hearts were in fact not awarded at the discretion of commanders. Yet this did not stop Lt.(jg) Kerry from personally pursuing the awarding of the medal to himself in the issuing months that followed. It is also odd that since Lt.(jg) Kerry was an Naval Officer that he was not aware of how Purple Hearts were awarded (but knew 3 could get him home real quick like.)
According to the doctor who had observed the wound, Dr. Louis Letson, recalled that Kerry told him during his visit to the medical tent that his crew "had been engaged in a firefight, receiving small arms fire from on shore. He said that his injury resulted from this enemy action." We know this is not the truth.
Then there is the differing accounts being told by the witnesses who were with Kerry that February 28th day. Notice in recent accounts, Kerry's crewmembers make it clear they saw the VC soldier standing up on two feet and prepared to fire his B-40. There is a very good reason for recent account change: they are being coached.
Back in 1996, Tom Belodeau was quoted as saying "You know, I shot that guy. ... When I hit him, he went down and got up again. When Kerry hit him, he stayed down." This caused Senator Kerry to become angry and hold that press conference as described earlier to deflect allegations he may have killed an already wounded enemy soldier. Now that he is running for president he does not want this allegation to resurface - and when someone is found recalling events that suggests Kerry's actions were not Silver Star material they get a call to alter their eye-witness accounts to cast Senator Kerry's actions in a more favorable light.
This is why we find current accounts of Kerry's actions more focused on the threat of the lone VC soldier with his loaded rocket launcer then on him being hit, knocked down by someone else and finally chased behind a hooch and killed. Not a whole lot of heroism to this old version of events, especially if you are running for president of the United States.
And of course, all this does is show that the events of over 30 years ago can be edited to in the most favorable light for the benefit of Senator Kerry today - which in return, demonstrates anything about Senator Kerry's alleged combat actions cannot be trusted no matter who the source is. Look how long it took to get to the truth of Kerry's first bogus Purple Heart.
Questions and more Questions
Why hasn't Senator Kerry released the after-action reports for the events that lead to his so-called Silver Star? Where is the two witnesses statements required for the Silver Star? Where is the nomination form for the Silver Star? Was there ever an official investigation as required for a Silver Star? Why won't Senator Kerry simply sign a Standard Form 180 so anyone can obtain his military records so we wouldn't have to keep asking questions and filling in the blanks?
Why was Kerry the only one who received a medal for chasing the fleeing VC soldier? If Medeiros was really chasing behind him; then why wasn't he given a medal for risking his life behind Lt.(jg) Kerry? Why wasn't Tom Belodeau recognize for hitting the the enemy soldier, making Kerry's job much easier (at least it slowed down the VC would not have had more time to fire before Kerry caught up)?
Was there really a VC with a rocket launcher? In that same 2001 interview with CNN's Jonathan Karl there was this exchange:
KARL: And you still have the rocket launcher?
KERRY: I do have the rocket, yes, I do have the rocket. One of the SEALs disarmed it for me, and I brought it home.
Ask Senator Kerry to immediately produce the B-40 launcher he says he has at home before the media, and perhaps asked to explain how he was able to get such an prohibited item through military customs in Vietnam in 1969. The Military was very strict with inspections and with what you could take home with you. Military Customs would confiscate even spent .50 cal shells from those who tried to sneak them home through their baggage. _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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War Dog Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 517 Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:04 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | No disrespect to Air Force and Naval personel, but I find their opinions to be a little distant from what happens on the ground. |
I guess all Air Force personnel flew planes, and all Navy personnel were in ships, planes and submarines, huh? I guess that by that statement, only the personnel in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand that were in the Army and Marines were the only ones that understood what was happening, went into action, faced danger and combat, huh?
I beg to differ with you, but your statement shows just how little you really know about the other branches of the Military. What about all the combat forces of the Air Force, i.e., Security Police, Combat Security Police, Security Police K9's that served in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand?
What about the combat forces of the Navy, i.e., Swift Boat Sailors, River Rats, SEALS, Navy Master At Arms K9's that served in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia?
Gee, did all these guys that served in the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia and died and wounded and fought not fully understand what was happening on the ground because they were just Air Force and Navy service personnel?
As a member of the Vietnam Security Police Association, and the Vietnam Dog Handlers Association, I highly resent and am insulted by someone in the Army that thinks all we did was fly planes. Plus having spent over 16 years in the Navy, having the same thing said about people in the Navy!
I guess next, he'll say that the people in the Army and Marines were the only people that did the fighting in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand!
How many names of US Air Force Security Police, US Air Force Security Police K9 Handlers, US Navy K9 handlers would he like me to give him that were KIA/WIA?
Friggin War Woof! _________________ "When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:15 am Post subject: |
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This is just from my Task Force. 2554 Naval Personnel were lost in Vietnam plus 7 Coasties who served in TF115.
U.S. NAVAL FORCES
CTF - 117 - MOBILE RIVERINE FORCE
PERSONNEL KILLED IN ACTION / MISSING IN ACTION
SOUTHEAST ASIA THEATER OF THE VIETNAM WAR
1960-1975
"May our Brothers Rest in Peace"
CTF-117 River Assault Flotilla One
River Assault Squadron 9 - River Assault Division 91
09/27/67 - Wiselee Smith, San Francisco, BM3, CA - ATC-91-10 (Kien Hoa)
09/27-67 - David Du Wayne Knowles, SN, Eatonville, WA - ATC-91-10 (Kien Hoa)
09/27/67 - Marc S. James, SN, Bronx, NY - ATC-91-3 (Kien Hoa)
02/01/68 - William M. Comer Jr., BM2, Larned, KS - BC - ASPB-91-2 (Dinh Tuong)
07/23/68 - John F. Bobb, BM1, Erlanger, KY - BC - ASPB-91-4 (Kien Hoa)
07/23/68 - David A. Pearson, FN, Town Tonawanda, NY - ASPB-91-4 (Kien Hoa)
11/10/68 - Sammy J. Cross, GMG3, Hominy, OK - M-91-2 (Kien Hoa)
12/23/68 - Wallace Going, BM2, Watson, OK - ASPB-91-5 (Kien Hoa)
01/10/69 - Daniel L. Westlie, EN3, Augusta, WI - ATC-91-1 (Kien Hoa)
River Assault Squadron 9 - River Assault Division 92
04/12/67 - Michael J. Smith, SA, Kansas City, KS - (Kien Hoa)
12/21/67 - Frank H. Buck, FN, Wenonah, NJ - ATC-92-10 (Dinh Tuong)
02/06/68 - Samuel M. Boyce, RM3, Dardanelle, AR - ASPB-92-2 (Vinh Long)
03/02/68 - Michael A. Evenson, RM3, Lakota, ND - ASPB-92-7 (Phong Dinh)
03/18/68 - David H. Wyrick, LT, Alliance, OH - 1100 - CO - M-92-1 (Dinh Tuong)
04/04/68 - Samuel C. Chavous Jr., BMC, Cross City, FL - BC - M-92-2 (Kien Hoa)
04/04/68 - Douglas G. Morton, FN, Phoenix, AZ - M-92-2 (Kien Hoa)
04/04/68 - John D. Woodard, BM3, Clyde, NC - M-92-2 (Kien Hoa)
08/02/68 - Charles H. Dellinger, SN, Gibsonia, PA - ATC-92-8 (Phong Dinh)
05/12/69 - David J. Boron, SN, Cleveland, OH (Go Cong)
River Assault Squadron 11 - River Assault Division 111
09/15/67 - William H. Little, EN2, Weymouth, MA - M-111-3 (Dinh Tuong)
09/15/67 - Richard A. Cheek, SN, Oregon, IL - M-111-2 (Ding Tuong)
09/15/67 - William T. Diamond Jr., SN, Ottawa, IL - ATC-111-6 (Dinh Tuong)
12/04/67 - Adrian E. Howell, FN, Lucedale, MS - ATC-111-8 (Dinh Tuong)
12/04/67 - Robert J. Moras, FN, Escanaba, MI - ATC-111-8 (Dinh Tuong)
12/21/67 - Frederic P. Webb, RMSN, Redmond, OR - ASPB-111-4 (Dinh Tuong)
02/07/68 - Maynard L. Smith, EN3, Troy, KS - ATC-111-? (Vinh Long)
02/27/68 - James L. Lien, BM2, Lead, SD. - BC - ASPB-111-4 (Military Region-4)
02/27/68 - Jeider J. Warren, BM1, Castor, LA - ASPB-111-4 (Military Region-4)
03/09/68 - Eugene E. Swift, BM3, Hyattsville, MD - ATC-111-5 (Bien Hoa)
05/04/68 - Charles L. Perry, BM3, Columbus, OH (Dinh Tuong)
05/09/68 - Roy A. Cox, Ft. Worth, BM3, TX - ATC-111-7 (Dinh Tuong)
05/10/68 - Kenneth A. Carroll, BM2, Ohley, WV (Go Cong)
05/26/68 - Ronald W. Durbin, BM2, Cumberland, MD - BC - ASPB-111-1 (Kien Hoa)
05/26/68 - Jerry L. Williams, RM3, Picher, OK - ASPB-111-1 (Kien Hoa)
07/23/68 - Charles S. Roy, EN2, Rock Springs, WY CCB-111-1 (Dinh Tuong)
08/21/68 - R. D. Sullivan, BM1, Centerville, TN - ATC-111-10 (Dinh Tuong)
11/01/68 - Harry J. Kenney, EN3, Cincinnati, OH - USS Westchester County LST-1167 (Go Cong) - * MIA *
11-11-68 - Eddie M. Adams, FN, Hadley, MA - ASPB-111-1 (Dinh Tuong)
11-11-68 - Theodore Harrison, Jr., SN, Chicago, IL - ASPB-111-1 (Dinh Tuong)
03/09/69 - Jackie R. Morgan, BM2, Oklahoma City, OK - BC - ATC-111-9 (Tay Ninh)
03/31/69 - Donald L. Bruckart, GMG3, Redlands, CA - ATC-111-2 (Kien Tuong)
River Assault Squadron 11 - River Assault Division 112
07/11/67 - Howard W. Bannister, BMC, Delbarton, WV - M-112-1 (Long An)
03/01/68 - Leslie E. Murray, BM1, Chehalis, WA - ASPB-112-8 (Phong Dinh)
03/14/68 - Edward J. Hagl, BM1, McAllister, MT - BC - ATC-112-7 (Quang Tri)
03-14-68 - Frankie R. Johnson, EN3, Toppenish, WA - ATC-112-7 (Quang Tri)
03/14/68 - Ernest W. Wiglesworth Jr., BM3, Greensboro, NC - ATC-112-7 (Quang Tri)
03/14/68 - Eugene Nelson, FN, Lug Off, SC - ATC-112-7 (Quang Tri)
03/14/68 - Robert W. Cawley, SN, Butte, MT - ATC-112-7 (Quang Tri)
03/14/68 - Joseph S. Perysian, SN, Oak Lawn, IL - ATC-112-7 (Quang Tri)
05/24/68 - Frederick V. Arens Jr., FN, Boston, MA - ASPB-112-1 (Go Cong)
08/18/68 - Stephen C. Brunton, BM3, Ukiah, CA - ASPB-112-2 (Dinh Tuong)
08/18/68 - Billy D. Roy, BM3, Oklahoma City, OK - ASPB-112-1 (Dinh Tuong)
08/18/68 - Edward R. Darville III, GMG3, Hialeah, FL - ASPB-112-2 (Dinh Tuong)
08/18/68 - Patrick J. Griffin, RM3, Topeka, KS - ASPB-112-1 (Dinh Tuong)
12/16/68 - Charles L. Kneece, BM3, Chillicothe, OH - ASPB-112-1 (Kien Hoa)
01/31/69 - Ronald Chapman, ENFN, Columbia, MS (Gia Dinh)
02/16/69 - Nelson Ramirez, SN, Bronx, NY - ASPB-112-5 (Hua Nghia)
02/23/69 - Nicholas I. Pyle, SN, Columbus, OH - CCB-111-1 (Hua Nghia)
River Assault Squadron 13 - River Assault Division 131
08/02/68 - William R. Taylor, BM2, Honolulu, HI - ATC-131-9 (Chuong Thien)
11/12/68 - James A. Myers Jr., GMG2, New Harmony, IN - ASPB 131-2 (Kien Giang)
03/15/69 - Harvey Lee Basco, BM2, Alexandria, LA - ATC-131-8 (Go Cong)
06/07/69 - Curtis L. Hendrickson, SN, Winger, MN - ATC-131-10 (Long An)
02/26/70 - Norman K. Byassee, EN2, Litchfield, Park, AZ - UH1B Helicopter (An Giang)
River Assault Squadron 13 - River Assault Division 132
02/06/69 - Mark Siedentopf, SN, Fremont, CA - ATC-132-1 (Kien Hoa)
02/22/69 - Victor G. McCall, EN2, Brevard, NC - ATC-132-6 (Kien Hoa)
04/29/69 - Richard L. Keller, EN3, Lomita, CA - ASPB-132-3 (Chuong Thien)
04/29/69 - Terry N. Thompson, FN, Gulfport, MS - ASPB-132-3 (Chuong Thien)
05/24/69 - Ronnie G. Klomstad, SN, Rochester, MN - ATC-132-10 (Bien Hoa)
08/28/69 - Richard E. Martinez, BM1, Renton, WA - ATC-132-15 (Dinh Tuong)
09/05/69 - Terry D. Mason, RMSN, Toppenish, WA - ATC-132-22 (Tay Ninh)
11/17/69 - James F. Rost Jr., LTJG, Malverne, NY - 1105 - ATC-132-6 (Vinh Long)
12/30/69 - Doyle H. Parson, BMC, Weeping Water, NE - Z-132-1 (Bac Lien)
River Assault Squadron 15 - Staff
06/23/70 - Harold L. Linville, HM2, Reno, NV - Helo SeaFloat
River Assault Squadron 15 - River Assault Division 151
01/14/69 - Jose B. Campos, BTFN, Seguin, TX - ATC-151-5 (Chuong Thien)
01/14/69 - David A. Land, SN, Wichita, KS - ATC-151-5 (Chuong Thien)
04/21/69 - Thomas W. Gaudet, EN3, Salem, NH - ATC-151-3 (Chuong Thien)
06/01/69 - Iris H. Harrington, EN3, Iowa, LA - ATC-151-1 (Long An)
01/21/70 - Ronald S. Athanasiou, BM3, Jacksonvillle, TX - ATC-151-36 (Hua Nghai)
01/21/70 - James C. Baumer, ENFN, Huron, OH - ATC-151-36 (Hua Nghai)
River Assault Squadron 15 - River Assault Division 152
12/27/68 - Barry M. Barber, SN, Las Vegas, NV - ATC-152-10 (Kien Giang)
02/28/69 - William A. Hanna, BM2, Ft. Smith, AR - ATC-152-3 (Vinh Long)
River Division 595 / River Assault Division 153
12/11/69 - Larry R. Dameron, BM3, Burlington, NC - ASPB-153-6849 (Tay Ninh)
12/11/69 - Joseph F. Benak, FN, Jupiter, FL - ASPB-153-6849 (Tay Ninh)
08/23/70 - James R. Hunt, QMC, Columbus, IN - PO - ASPB-153-? (Go Cong)
11/04/70 - Bruce C. Hunt, EN3, South Pasadena, CA - ATC-153-2 (An Xuyen)
USS Askari (ARL-30)
12/03/67 - John R. Ruoho, MR1, Florence, WI (Off Shore)
07/21/70 - Scott F. Wemette, DCFN, Malone, NY (An Giang)
USS Benewah (APB-35)
05/24/67 - Sandy M. Rivers, SN, Philadelphia, PA (Phuoc Tuy)
11/28/69 - Michael L. Ferguson, RD1, Rockwood, TN (Kien Phong)
11/11/70 - John E. Hollis, SN, Apple Spring, TX (Kien Phong)
USS Colleton (APB-36)
05/03/69 - Edward N. Barr, SN, Brevig Mission, AK (Kien Hoa)
USS Krishna (ARL-3
07/01/69 - Richard Garza Jr., SFP3, San Jose, CA (Kien Giang)
USS Tom Green County (LST-1159)
11/29/66 - Stephen C. Sharp, FN, Houston, TX (Quang Nam)
01/21/69 - Ray L. Sharp, CS2, Ridgeway, MI (Bien Hoa)
01/21/69 - Raymond J. Krekelberg, CSSN, St. Paul, MN (Bien Hoa)
USS Mercer (APB-39)
11/22/68 - Thomas E. Sheppard, CSC, Lake Worth, FL (An Giang)
USS Nye County (LST-1067)
11/24/66 - James R. Willeford, SA, Hartford, IL (Thua Thien)
USS Outagamie County (LST-1073)
08/27/67 - James E. Young, FA, Houston, TX (Quang Tri)
USS Westchester County (LST-1167)
05/10/65 - Dudley W. Mayo, SN, Bellflower, CA (South China Sea)
11/01/68 - Rodney W. Peters, RMC, Grants Pass, OR (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Anthony R. Torcivia, CS1, Easton, PA (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Richard C. Cartwright, SK1, Jamestown, OH (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Aristotoles D.R. Ibanez, SK1, Cavite City, Philippines, (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - David G. Fell, PN1, Van Wert, OH (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Jerry S. Leonard, YN1, Greensboro, NC (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Chester D. Dale, QM2, Capitan, NM (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Thomas G. Funke, ETN2, Coeur D Alene, ID (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Thomas H. Smith, QM2, Markesan, WI (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Floyd W. Houghtaling III, QM3, Canajoharie, NY ( Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Keith W. Duffy, RD3, Yonkers, NY (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Gerald E. B. Hamm, RM3, Camden, AR (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Joseph A. Miller Jr., RM3, Lebanon, PA (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Reinhard J. Schnurrer Jr., RM3, St. Paul, MN (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Cary F. Rundle, YN3, Aldan, PA (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Timothy C. Dunning, SMSN, Santa Ana, CA (Go Cong)
11/01/68 - Jackie C. Carter, SA, San Jose, CA (Go Cong)
CTF - 194 Commander Naval Forces Vietnam
CTG - 194.9 Commander River Patrol Forces (Staff)
01/08/70 - James C. Mitchell Jr, EM1, Torrance, CA - (Kien Giang) UH1B Helicopter
CTU - 194.9.7 Riverine Strike Group
09/25/69 - Lonnie R. Parker, FN, Bessemer, AL (Gia Dinh) - USS Benewah (APB-35) - Nhe Be River _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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DougReese Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 396
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Tom,
I can see from this name/location (Harold Linville/SeaFloat), that he was down in my area.
The other, Larry Dameron, would he have been attached down there? The other guys from River Assault Division 153 were KIA nowhere near An Xuyen.
Doug
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River Assault Squadron 15 - Staff
06/23/70 - Harold L. Linville, HM2, Reno, NV - Helo SeaFloat
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River Division 595 / River Assault Division 153
12/11/69 - Larry R. Dameron, BM3, Burlington, NC - ASPB-153-6849 (Tay Ninh)
12/11/69 - Joseph F. Benak, FN, Jupiter, FL - ASPB-153-6849 (Tay Ninh)
08/23/70 - James R. Hunt, QMC, Columbus, IN - PO - ASPB-153-? (Go Cong)
11/04/70 - Bruce C. Hunt, EN3, South Pasadena, CA - ATC-153-2 (An Xuyen) |
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War Dog Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 517 Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Tom and Doug, do you agree with what I said? Looks like you do!
Friggin War Woof! _________________ "When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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