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Big Kahuna
Lieutenant
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 219
Location: SE Texas
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 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject: Sandy Berger -- Really an accident |
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Clinton Aide, Sandy Bergler, Takes Documents from the National Archive
WASHINGTON, DC — President Clinton's National Security Advisor, Sandy Bergler, is the focus of a criminal investigation after admitting that he removed highly classified terrorism documents from a secure reading room at the National Archives during preparations for the 9/11 Commission hearings.
Bergler said he “inadvertently” removed the documents.
“I got home and opened up my notebook,” said Bergler, “and out popped all these documents. It is amazing how hundreds of pages can get caught up in a tiny notebook.” His notebook measures 2 ˝ inches by 4 inches.
“Then I took off my jacket and out fell three boxes full of documents. I couldn’t believe it. I thought the jacket seemed a little heavier than usual.
“Then I took off my trousers and out fell a container full of documents. I guess they inadvertently got there when I was scratching myself.
“I am happy to return the documents to the National Archive,” said Bergler, “except for the ones I inadvertently mislaid. It seems I inadvertently mislaid multiple copies of the same sensitive documents – what a coincidence! – but the remaining documents are not at all sensitive.”
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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He did his job, that's all. He was sent there to destroy evidence. I just don't know if Clinton sent him or if Kerry sent him. He will take this bullet for the President and Clinton can be admirred for the impeached President that he is. Semper Fi.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Very funny opening piece. 
As for being sent to destroy evidence.... I don't know - how can anyone have benefitted from this?
As I understand it, these were not unique original documents, but copies. The originals and numerous other copies would still exist, no matter how many times he took copies from the secure room.
They're so well catalogued that the attendants knew which pages were missing right after the visit that tripped everyone's curiosity.
I'm sure he was sent to do something, but what? The whole thing is mystifying.
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | Very funny opening piece.
As for being sent to destroy evidence.... I don't know - how can anyone have benefitted from this?
As I understand it, these were not unique original documents, but copies. The originals and numerous other copies would still exist, no matter how many times he took copies from the secure room.
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The voice of reason . . . . . stating the truth -- they were copies, copies that the 9/11 Commission, among others, already had.
Doug |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion is that it really doesn't matter what he took, if they were notes, copies, originals or other. The bottom line is that the rules and laws say that 'no documents can be removed from the National Archives' without permission. Sandy Berger knew the rules, and knew that what he was doing was breaking the law. You do not, and let me repeat myself on that to make sure it's clear, 'you do not put documents inside your coat, in your pockets, inside your pants, and in your socks' as an accident, or a simple or honest mistake. That was done deliberately and with only one purpose in mind, to disobey the rules, and smuggle these documents out of the National Archives. That is a clear breach of security, and a clear violations of the rules and laws that govern custody of sensitive and ultra secret documents within the National Archives.
I don't care what all the spinners, apologists, Bush-Haters, Kerry-Lovers, Clinton-Lovers, word parsers, democratic/liberal protectioners and others say. They are trying their best to spin the story away from the bottom line, that crime(s) were committed here, and that this man deserves to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
If a Republican / Conservative had done this, they would all be screaming at the top of their lungs for justice and prosecution. This story would be on the front page of all the liberal leaning and biased newspapers and magazines in this nation. It'd be all over the talk radio circut, and all TV network news shows. They'd be screaming for heads to roll, investigations to be held, resignations from all in public office in the Congress and White House, impeachment of both Bush and Cheney, etc...
This double standard is pure crap. The man stole documents and notes from the National Archives, not once but at least three to five times. He lied about it, and when cornered and confronted, he returned some of the documents and notes, and either destroyed or misplaced others. What this man did was to break several laws. Let's not forget that!
Friggin War Woof!
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When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | | This double standard is pure crap. The man stole documents and notes from the National Archives, not once but at least three to five times. |
Amen!
Any Nuke E2 in the Navy knows and is held accountable for the proper handling of classified materials - how is the NSA NOT held accountable for this theft?
But, WarDog already nailed the answer to that one - he's of the wrong political affiliation to be called to account for this.
What remains a mystery, to me anyway, is WHY? What purpose did this theft serve? It's just beyond me... surely he knew that he was stealing only copies and that removing a copy from that one secure room did not wipe out the record? This is most curious... I would love to know the WHY.
Clinton and his laughing buddies can try as they might to pass it off as "disorganization," but surely the discomfort of having paper stuffed into your pants and socks while you're trying to walk down a hallway would remind you that you weren't handling those documents properly? 
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | they were copies, copies that the 9/11 Commission, among others, already had. |
It doesn't matter how many copies were extant or who had possession of them.
Removing them from a secure room is a severe breach of security measures for those materials and he KNEW he was committing a crime when he took them.
I'm sure he's not going to pay any penalty for his repeated theft of highly classified documents - in fact, he will probably never have to explain himself and his reasons.
If he ends up being prosecuted for these incidents in any way, I'm sure the tectonic plates will shift and plunge us all into Atlantis or something. 
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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I would agree a little with that. Yes most documents are just copies, but it is my understanding that two or more are totally gone. It is a question of how many times did he do this during the Clinton years? Who did he show or sell our secrets to? My question goes much deeper than the 9-11 papers. I reasonably assume that I now know how China got our nuclear secrets. A deeper probe is definatly in order. This deserves a much bigger question than the 9-11 papers, it involves our security while he has had access to any classified materials. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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arjr111
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What remains a mystery, to me anyway, is WHY? What purpose did this theft serve? It's just beyond me... surely he knew that he was stealing only copies and that removing a copy from that one secure room did not wipe out the record? |
As a matter of speculation, one could think of several scenarios.
If a knowledgeable person knows that a particular resource is going to be used as the "reference area" for the 9/11 commission, searching for documentation, it may seem reasonable for a desperate person, to remove documents, hoping that the Commision, would not realize the documents have been removed, and therefore would not initiate a search for copies.
Or even, that the Commisions research might be so delayed, as to hinder/postpone an undesireable affect the information contained in the stolen documents would engender if made public, during a substantially important time period.
And finally, one might want the information contained in the stolen documents, in order to help construct appropriate responses for the damaging information when it was revealed.
And worstly, one could want the documents to sell to our enemies.
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Semper-Fi |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Which Enemies? The Kerry Campaign? 
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Big Kahuna
Lieutenant
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 219
Location: SE Texas
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| arjr111 wrote: | | Quote: | | What remains a mystery, to me anyway, is WHY? What purpose did this theft serve? It's just beyond me... surely he knew that he was stealing only copies and that removing a copy from that one secure room did not wipe out the record? |
As a matter of speculation, one could think of several scenarios.
If a knowledgeable person knows that a particular resource is going to be used as the "reference area" for the 9/11 commission, searching for documentation, it may seem reasonable for a desperate person, to remove documents, hoping that the Commision, would not realize the documents have been removed, and therefore would not initiate a search for copies.
Or even, that the Commisions research might be so delayed, as to hinder/postpone an undesireable affect the information contained in the stolen documents would engender if made public, during a substantially important time period.
And finally, one might want the information contained in the stolen documents, in order to help construct appropriate responses for the damaging information when it was revealed.
And worstly, one could want the documents to sell to our enemies. |
First of all, they were copies -- NOT originals. Copies.
So loosing them doesn't delay anything.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | | they were copies, copies that the 9/11 Commission, among others, already had. |
It doesn't matter how many copies were extant or who had possession of them.
Removing them from a secure room is a severe breach of security measures for those materials and he KNEW he was committing a crime when he took them.
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I am acutely aware of that.
I was just trying to emphasize the fact, for those who have all kinds of conspiracy theories based on these being original documents, that they were copies.
Apparently my efforts fell on deaf ears/the blind, as my comment was followed by someone who did just that.
Doug |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Apparently my efforts fell on deaf ears/the blind, as my comment was followed by someone who did just that. |
Nope, you were fully understood as one of the appeasers that would defend those in the democratic/liberal party that would commit criminal act after criminal act.
It doesn't matter if they were copies or originals. The man broke the law, which specifically stated that "NO Documents shall be removed from the National Archives"! Now, not to be too scarcastic on this, what part of that law do you not understand? The phrase 'Documents' means copies, originals, notes, any piece of paper! And not only did he do this one time, apparantly he did it five times in five visits.
The man broke the law, it should matter not if he is a democrat, republican, liberal, conservative, independent, greenie, progressive or other. He should be prosecuted and if found guilty, sentenced to the full extent of the law. He knew the rules and the laws. What he did was to purposely remove these documents from where he knew he was not authorized to do so, and even tricked the guards to leave the room, with the guize that he needed to use his phone in private, so that he could stuff these documents in his coat, his pants pockets, down his pants and in his socks. That act is done by one whose intent is to break the law, and steal that which is not to leave the room in the National Archives.
I'd say the same thing if this was anyone from any party or political persuation. This wasn't an accident, it wasn't a 'honest' or 'simple' mistake. It was done for the deliberate reason of removing documents that he did not want others to know about.
Do you deny that removing documents, either copies, notes or originals is a criminal act and breaking the laws of the National Archives?
Friggin War Woof!
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"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | | Quote: | | Apparently my efforts fell on deaf ears/the blind, as my comment was followed by someone who did just that. |
It doesn't matter if they were copies or originals. The man broke the law, which specifically stated that "NO Documents shall be removed from the National Archives"! Now, not to be too scarcastic on this, what part of that law do you not understand? The phrase 'Documents' means copies, originals, notes, any piece of paper! And not only did he do this one time, apparantly he did it five times in five visits.
Do you deny that removing documents, either copies, notes or originals is a criminal act and breaking the laws of the National Archives?
Friggin War Woof! |
OK -- Everyone pay attention, pleeeze (that last part was especially for Me #1 You #10). . . . . .
1. I was making the point -- stating a fact -- for the reasons I mentioned, not for any other reasons.
2. When NavyNavyNavy wrote:
"Removing them from a secure room is a severe breach of security measures for those materials and he KNEW he was committing a crime when he took them. "
And I replied:
"I am acutely aware of that."
Now, not to be too scarcastic on this, what part of my reply do you not understand?
Doug |
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