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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Ummmmh, ya got me thinking, Adopt a terrorist, make a donation and when hes caught the highest bidder gets to waste him! Pay-per-view would be nice!  
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Man, I could really go along with that refusing to give a "refund" to those who paid no taxes thing! 
My concerns are similar to carpro's - I'm afraid that eventually, we'd end up with BOTH taxes. Congress has never met a tax it wasn't in love with. 
I'd be more supportive of a flat tax - set a minimum income floor of $30-40,000 and tax everything above that for every entity. No loopholes. Same percentage for everyone - individuals, small businesses and corporations.
But, we really need to start screaming about the profligacy in Congress. We need to get people educated and energized about the pork-barreling and wastefulness in government.
We've got to stop demanding federal funds for every dang thing that occurs to us. We want a municipal pool, we fund it through the municipality, not the federal freakin' government! Why should I be footing the bill for swimming pools and ice rinks and libraries in communities I will never even see? The federal government is into a whole lot of stuff that it has no business being in, but we have not only allowed it, we've demanded it.
If I remember correctly, we paid 42% of our income in taxes last year! What the heck is THAT? It's completely unfair.
If we paid a flat tax of 18-20%, along with everyone else in America, the government would be funded and we would personally have a lot more money to devote to contributing to the economy (building our house! and maybe buying a car to replace the one that's falling apart!) and helping to fund the more efficient local efforts that help the poor, unwed mothers, etc.
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jwb7605
Rear Admiral
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 690
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | My real fear with any consumption based tax is that we'll eventually end up with both a consumption tax and the income tax to boot.(see Europe)
Politicians can never have enough money, it seems. The first time consumer buying goes down, some sweetheart will scream to increase the percentage , the products taxed or reinstitute an income tax.
Instead, I prefer a flat tax with the percentage to be determined , but with exemptions of (pick a figure) say $40, 000 to protect the working poor.
Just some rough thoughts. |
Here's the bottom line, IMHO:
(a) Repubs propose consumption tax
(b) We get to see lots of commercials from Dems on why it's bad and unfair
(c) We get feeble arguments/lackluster responses from Repubs
(d) Idea picks up steam with the public anyway.
(e) Repubs decide on a "bipartisan compromise", a double positive ("yeah, right")
(f) due to red hilighted item above, whole thing becomes blue highlight above (Repub compromise Dem = $$ x 2.0)
(g) Things go to Supreme Court (who currently make decisions with deference to green highlighted item)
A flat percentage (say 20%), no exemptions is my vote.
Exemptions are slippery slopes, and guarantee "adjustments".
Let the states do what the states will do ... |
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FairTaxGuy
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
Location: IN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | Man, I could really go along with that refusing to give a "refund" to those who paid no taxes thing!
My concerns are similar to carpro's - I'm afraid that eventually, we'd end up with BOTH taxes. Congress has never met a tax it wasn't in love with. |
Thanks for the reply Navy, I don't think you read my reply to carpro so I'll requote what I said to him regarding the same issues you mentioned about this and about a flat tax:
"It is also easier, and far more likely, that you will see politicians currently enact some form of consumption tax to be placed in addition to the current income tax mess. The FairTax abolishes all of the taxes on income and nobody who benefits from the FairTax (which is mainly everyone besides the lobbyists, politician's pockets, and the underground economy) would allow 1913 to happen again after benefiting from the FairTax."
| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | I'd be more supportive of a flat tax - set a minimum income floor of $30-40,000 and tax everything above that for every entity. No loopholes. Same percentage for everyone - individuals, small businesses and corporations.
If I remember correctly, we paid 42% of our income in taxes last year! What the heck is THAT? It's completely unfair.
If we paid a flat tax of 18-20%, along with everyone else in America, the government would be funded and we would personally have a lot more money to devote to contributing to the economy (building our house! and maybe buying a car to replace the one that's falling apart!) and helping to fund the more efficient local efforts that help the poor, unwed mothers, etc. |
"I too supported the flat tax before I learned about the FairTax. Plus we essentially had a "flat tax" from the '86 tax reforms but look at the mess it transformed itself back into in less than 20 years. The flat tax rate you usually hear about is 17% but they ALWAYS neglect to mention the payroll taxes, which is still another 7.65% deducted from your paycheck, and still another 7.65% deducted on the employers end which many economists believe would have gone to our wages. Nor does the flat tax get rid of filing a return, the IRS, and the hundreds of billions wasted on compliance."
Guys please read just a little about the FairTax at the many websites out there about it:
www.FairTax.org
www.FairTaxVolunteer.org
www.myfairtax.org
www.salestax.org
www.salestaxusa.com
There's even a couple of calculators that will compare your FairTax rate to your income tax rate here too:
www.pafairtax.org/calc.php
www.salestax.org/FairTaxCalculator.htm
I 100% believe that anybody who reads a little bit about this and learns some details about the FairTax plan would not support any other tax reform plan, and this is what I've experienced from everyone I've personally talked to about this. Even those I know who are the luxurious spenders support this because it is impossible to ever pay anything more than a 23% tax rate. You'd also have to earn $1,000,000 and spend every single penny of that million to pay a 22.9% tax rate. The flat tax is still 17% + 7.65% payroll, plus the matching end of the employers. The FairTax Act currently has 37 cosponsors while the flat tax act has only 5. Where is the listing of economists who have endorsed the flat tax as well vs. the 75+ who've signed a FairTax endorsement: http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/Open_Letter_President.pdf
The FairTax is the only way to go, not a VAT, not a flat income tax, not a transaction tax, and certainly not tinkering with the current code!
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www.FairTax.org
www.FairTaxIndiana.net |
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FairTaxGuy
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
Location: IN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| jwb7605 wrote: |
Here's the bottom line, IMHO:
(a) Repubs propose consumption tax
(b) We get to see lots of commercials from Dems on why it's bad and unfair
(c) We get feeble arguments/lackluster responses from Repubs
(d) Idea picks up steam with the public anyway.
(e) Repubs decide on a "bipartisan compromise", a double positive ("yeah, right")
(f) due to red hilighted item above, whole thing becomes blue highlight above (Repub compromise Dem = $$ x 2.0)
(g) Things go to Supreme Court (who currently make decisions with deference to green highlighted item)
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Thanks for posting jwb. Some of what you said is true, and some of couse is false. Republicans nor democrats have proposed the FairTax, it was researched since 1995 by a large group of bi-partisan economic academicians and economists. FairTax.org has always been non-partisan, and both republican and democrat pollsters were used during the test phase where it was marketed in a few select cities. The response was nothing but positive.
The FairTax Act was introduced by a republican and a democrat, John Linder (R) and Colin Peterson (D). In previous sessions of Congress there have been a number of democrat cosponsors on this bill as democrats who stick to the party's principles should be as the FairTax completely untaxes the poor and elderly with the monthly paid in advance rebate (prebate) that exempts all spending up to the HHS established poverty guidelines for household size. Democrats who know about the FairTax support this.
Now to what you had mentioned in truth. Last November in certain districts the Dems had spent tons of money in negative ads against republicans who supported the FairTax in attempt to make it look just like the poor and elderly would be hurt by it. The dems won ZERO of these seats where they did this. Currently Democrat Leadership (i.e. Pelosi) has not allowed any of the Democrats who support this to cosponsor the bill. Yet Pelosi herself has made the comments herself publically on CSPAN that "A consumption tax could work". Perhaps she's learned about the prebate or her constituency has swamped her with calls/letters/faxes about the FairTax but it is truly non-partisan and when this does get the media attention it deserves people will see this.
Please read more about the FairTax at the sites mentioned in m last post, and my previous messages. Thanks!
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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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I'll agree to a flat tax, I never met a (fair) tax. I think no more than ten percent will do until the pork and waste issues have been fixed! 
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TexAsh
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 2
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| blue9t3 wrote: | | I'll agree to a flat tax, I never met a (fair) tax. I think no more than ten percent will do until the pork and waste issues have been fixed! |
Do you mean 10% of your total earnings, plus today's payroll taxes? If not, it'll never fly - not revenue neutral. If so, that means you add another 7.65% of everything you earn for Social Security and Medicare, plus another 7.65% matching funds from your employer (which could have gone to your wages) - like we are doing now? Isn't that a total of 25.3% of everything you earn?
The FairTax is 23% of your total taxable spending. (There's no tax on gifts, donations, tuitions, or used goods.) If you don't spend on taxable items, you don't pay taxes. The FairTax replaces payroll taxes and all income taxes, both personal and corporate. A rebate makes the FairTax scalable (progressive) so low-income spenders pay a lower effective tax rate.
See? You owe it to yourself to know more:
www.MyFairTax.org |
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FairTaxGuy
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
Location: IN
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| blue9t3 wrote: | | I'll agree to a flat tax, I never met a (fair) tax. I think no more than ten percent will do until the pork and waste issues have been fixed! |
blue9t3 meet www.FairTax.org, FairTax meet blue9t3.
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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I have a feeling the pork divers, bring home the Jimmy Dean crew aren't going to like this much, i'm starting to like this stuff! 
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FairTaxGuy
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
Location: IN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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bump. I'm curious on any responses to the replies I've made to some of the concerns that were brought forth regarding the FairTax here. I hope I sufficiently addressed these concerns and that you guys continued to educate youselves about the FairTax on the links I've provided. I still cannot see why anyone would support another form of taxation over this after knowing about the FairTax so I'm curious if we have anymore flat tax to FairTax converts like I use to be too!
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www.FairTax.org
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FairTaxGuy
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
Location: IN
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AMOS
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 558
Location: IOWA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject: How much? |
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| How much tax would a person pay on a $30,000 new car? |
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FairTaxGuy
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
Location: IN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: How much? |
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| AMOS wrote: | | How much tax would a person pay on a $30,000 new car? |
Hi AMOS,
Well if the cars retail purchase price is $30,000 than the the FairTax paid would be $9000. I know: 
Now it's not so much of a shock after one realizes that purchase prices will drop anywhere from 20-30% because businesses no longer have to embed their income tax, and income tax compliance costs, into the purchase price of their products. It's been estimated even that up to 45% of the cost of a new vehicle is hidden in taxes! Now that's a
So say your $30,000 pre-FairTax car now drops a minimum of onlyh 20%. That car now costs $24,000. FairTax cost is $7200 for a $31,200. It's nearly a wash, BUT you're getting your gross paycheck AND your monthly prebate so you still come out very much ahead!
A common argument from skeptics against this is that "prices won't drop", "companies will pocket the extra money", etc. Economists say "businesses don't pay taxes, only people pay taxes" and that applies here. They pass the cost of doing business down to the consumer to attain a profit margin. Companies would love to be able to lower their prices and still make good profits and under the FairTax they are able to do so. I'm certain there will be companies who will try to keep their prices the same, lower them a couple of points, or maybe even raise them but competition will eventually force them to lower prices to remain competitive in their market. Heck even IF prices weren't to drop a penny most would still remain ahead vs. the current system with getting your gross paycheck and the monthly prebate!
Read more about the FairTax at the following websites:
www.FairTax.org
www.FairTaxVolunteer.org
www.myfairtax.org
www.salestax.org
www.salestaxusa.com
www.fairtaxindiana.net
Calculators:
www.pafairtax.org/calc.php
www.salestax.org/FairTaxCalculator.htm
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GoophyDog
PO1
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 480
Location: Washington - The Evergreen State
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| TexAsh wrote: | | The FairTax is 23% of your total taxable spending. (There's no tax on gifts, donations, tuitions, or used goods.) If you don't spend on taxable items, you don't pay taxes. |
This is the one aspect that has bothered since the day I first heard of the "Fair Tax". If I want to reduce my taxation, I can simply always buy a used car, shop every flea market and yard sale that I run across and of course hit up the GoodWill stores and pawn shops. While I may look a bit ragged and may have some scuff marks on my furniture I can rest assured while driving my inefficient, probably barely road worthy vehicle that I'm not paying a cent more in taxes than I absolutely have to. What a joy to know that the same road I'm on will be filled with others of the same mindset (and probably the same bald tires).
The point I'm getting at here is that the "Fair Tax" over time could simply encourage those who have less capital to live more frugally and discourage those with more capital to spend less wisely. Both in turn, despite the in my opinion overly optomistic growth potential will actually cause a decline in all aspects of our economy and in doing so, force our government to look for new and "improved" methods to squeeze the turnip a little bit more.
The video and other presentations seemed to focus on the short-term revenue neutral aspects of a "Fair Tax" and that theme is continued throughout the web site. I searched a great deal yet could not find any research or statistical models that were projected even one generation down the road. Granted my scenarios above are worst case yet to make an informed decision to cast my support to this endeavor requires a look at the negative aspects and how they could play out. Even a simple country boy such as myself can see the dark side once the glitter is gone.
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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have listened to Boortz extensively on the Fair Tax proposition and believe that, at maturity, the system could be workable. My concern is the culture shock which would be evident at the onset. In other words, the transition from the old to a new taxation scheme could be traumatic.
Let's say Fair Tax becomes law and is set to be effective on 1 January 2007. The ream of paper at Staples that could have been purchased for $10.00 on 31 December 2006 costs $12.30 on 2 Jan when the store opens again. Even though the buyer on 2 Jan is no longer paying income tax or FICA/Medicare the sticker shock will be real. For a new car, the shock will be really real.
I firmly believe in the processes of competition and that as the embedded taxes eventually wash out of the inventory of products, basic prices will come down, hopefully to the point of offsetting the higher tax. But, on the effective date of the new law, the entire inventory of all the goods on the shelves and lots across the country will still bear the previously embedded taxes. Is there not the very real possibility that a large deflation of buying volume will occur as people put off buying stuff?
A massive education program, reaching all levels of the population will be needed and at a level of comprehension ability never before achieved.
My biggest worry is the various states' handling of Fair Tax impacts on their income. Many states simply take a percentage of federal tax for their income tax assessment. Unless people are attentive to what their state legislators are doing, and have the power through referendum to control them, you can be assured that the savings of Fair Tax will be negated by the states.
I am pessimistic about the chances of passage of Fair Tax. The Congress simply will not be able to wrap its collective mind around a system of taxation which is not absolutely controlled by them.
Schadow
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