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RacerJim
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 43
Location: Rockville Maryland
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Pickens made it clear tonite on H&C that the wager concerns only the statements made in the Swiftvets' 2004 ads, apparently eliminating anything appearing in other media, e.g., books. |
Appropriate and smart thing for Pickens to have done in response to Colmes' implication to Pickens that his letter in reply to Kerry's was a renege on his initial offer, i.e.; Pickens changed the 'rules of the game' after Kerry decided to 'play the game'. Such is what Kerry's supporters on AOL have done, and I've taken them to task on same with this analogy: Microsoft offers a piece of software for sale, you buy it, only after you've bought it does Microsoft tell you the 'rules of the game' (it's "End User License Agreement") and you can either accept Microsoft's 'rules' or not.
Colmes, of course, focused on the SBVT allegations pertaining to Kerry's medals and ignored the SBVT allegations pertaining to Kerry's 1971 testimony -- the latter, of course, being what awoke the sleeping giant and the prime focus of the SBVT ads. When Colmes made the mistake of implying that Kerry has released all of his military records Pickens immediately shot back with "I wish I could get them.", which Colmes of course ignored and then changed the subject.
Hannity, of course, raised the issue of Kerry's 1971 testimony -- silence from Colmes of course.
Although Pickens came across as very confident that Kerry can't do what he said he can, IMHO he did not come across as capable of winning a public debate against Kerry. Therefore, IMHO, Pickins needs to be very careful about the venue, terms, and conditions he agrees to. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Good points.
Also, those trumpeting Kerry's acceptance of Pickens' "challenge" are fond of drawing some conclusions based upon, what I'd propose, are mis-constructions of basic "contract law". While they are quick to note "offer" and "acceptance", there is also an element of "consideration" which is nestled between the two aforementioned and upon which, IMHO, Pickens has more than enough legal grounds (or wiggle room if you will) to clarify and specify the terms of his offer.
Beldar, where are you?
That being said, this "case" will most likely be tried in the court of public opinion as opposed to a court of law and Mr. Pickens might be better served by an exceptional PR firm than by an exceptional lawyer.
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ocsparky101
PO1
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 479
Location: Allen Park. Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Pickens needs to also request Kerry"s Personal FBI Files. |
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Leeman
PO3
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 265
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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If there is any debating to be done.
I propose a re-match of the JOHN O'NEILL VS JOHN KERRY Debate
That would be like the thrilla in Manila !!!!!!!!!!
we wanna rematch !!!! we wanna rematch !!!!
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Leeman
"We are all Ghost now"
"But once we were men"
from an unsigned diary recovered from Cabanatuan Camp |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Jean Fraud responds...and the rhetorical chess game continues...hopefully it catches the attention of Massachusetts voters as the "meat and potatoes" begin to be served...
| Quote: | Dear Mr. Pickens,
Thank you for your response to my acceptance of your challenge.
I’m grateful that you are prepared to make good on your word and fulfill the offer you made publicly at the American Spectator Dinner in Washington, D.C. on November 6th.
I must remind you, however, that this was and is your “challenge,” not mine. You are, after all, the one who said explicitly at the dinner — in a way that was calculated to challenge any naysayer — that you would give one million dollars “to anyone who could show that anything the SBVT said was false.” (RedState.Com) These were your words — and nowhere did you ever suggest, as you are now trying to, that your challenge referred specifically and exclusively to any advertising by the SBVT.
As you know, the lies of the SBVT were not confined just to their ads; they were a constant barrage of television, radio, Internet, speeches, and forums in which — significantly bankrolled by you — they launched and repeated lie after lie. Your challenge expressly stood behind all of their allegations.
It is disturbing that in reaffirming the challenge you issued, your parsing and backtracking seems eerily reminiscent of the entire approach of the SBVT — say one thing, put out an allegation, then duck and weave, hedge and bob when your words catch up with you. (Stop the Presses! THIS consumate LIAR has the unmitigated gaul to accuse someone else of "parsing, ducking and weaving?" Now WHERE did I put those "Meet The Press" quotes....) I want to believe that this was not your intent because I am told that you are a man of your word, not “all hat* (BAD choice of words there Jean Fraud) and no cattle.”
<snip> Remaining self-serving babble. That's all the space he gets here.
Sincerely,
John F. Kerry
United States Senator
* "They gave me a hat. I have the hat to this day. I have the hat." (with apologies to Taranto) |
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Aristotle The Hun
PO1
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 488
Location: Naples FL
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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J. William Middendorf is still alive and that scares John Fraud Kerry.
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Deportè Monsieur Kerrè |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr. has a hoot of an article up at The American Spectator posted before that latest reply by Kerry
| Quote: | Crybaby Kerry
11/21/2007
<>
Kerry has been whining about the rough treatment he received from his former comrades ever since they exposed him in the 2004 election. All the guff in his letter is typical of him: boastful, presumptuous, sophistical. Henceforth, I think I shall forego teasing him about his Francophile pretensions by calling him Jean-Francois. Rather, I shall call him Crybaby Kerry. Moreover, I shall start a clock on The American Spectator's website (www.spectator.org) and let it tick until Crybaby Kerry supplies Pickens with his Vietnam journal, his military records, and proof that the Swift Boat Veterans lied in their ads. Oh, and let us keep the Crybaby Kerry clock ticking until he comes up with his $1 million for the Medal of Honor Foundation. Upon filing this column my Crybaby Clock will begin ticking at Spectator.org. Now if only I could get my laughter under control.
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He did put the clock up on the main page LOL
Kerry is so splitting hairs re the wording of Pickens' challenge...it was an overheard conversation! Pickens hasn't changed the offer, he has now simply outlined the terms of evidence for his offer
Kerry says | Quote: | | I am prepared to prove the lie and marshal all the evidence |
For a million dollars, nobody would settle for what Kerry provides as proof. Kerry very well could have some minor detail that he'll hold up as an example.
Pickens' letter made an important distinction
| Quote: | | if you can then prove anything in the ads was materially untrue |
Material = relevant, significant, of real importance or consequence. NOT a missed dotting of an 'i' or crossing a 't'.
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Stevie
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 1451
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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I don't know T Boone (of course) but I do think any debate best be left to John O or the Chief.
and 'counter' proof needs to count - Kerry can drag out his self penned citations and wave them around - they don't count!
also, I was very excited when T Boone said 1 mil for charity. I was wildly waving my arms at the TV screen. Guess he didn' t see them... as he continued with - for some Vet organization!
ah-so... more well deserved I'm sure! lol!
_________________
Stevie
Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage
morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should
be arrested, exiled or hanged. |
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RacerJim
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 43
Location: Rockville Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I must remind you, however, that this was and is your “challenge,” not mine. You are, after all, the one who said explicitly at the dinner — in a way that was calculated to challenge any naysayer — that you would give one million dollars “to anyone who could show that anything the SBVT said was false.” (RedState.Com) These were your words — and nowhere did you ever suggest, as you are now trying to, that your challenge referred specifically and exclusively to any advertising by the SBVT.
-- Kerry's response |
I love it when Kerry opens his narcissist mouth only to have to insert his own filthy dirty smelly foot into it. The key wording in the above is contained within Kerry's quote of Perken's orginal challenge/offer, "...anything the SBVT said was false." "SBVT" is an entity not individual(s), therefore Kerry has to prove that something the SBVT as an entity said was false -- not something an individual member of the SBVT said as Kerry obviously wants to do. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| RacerJim wrote: | | The key wording in the above is contained within Kerry's quote of Perken's orginal challenge/offer, "...anything the SBVT said was false." "SBVT" is an entity not individual(s), therefore Kerry has to prove that something the SBVT as an entity said was false -- not something an individual member of the SBVT said as Kerry obviously wants to do. |
Racer, EXCELLENT observation...and certainly grounds upon which Mr. Pickens can further tweak Jean Fraud's nose. |
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zinfella
Rear Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 708
Location: Mesa, Az
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| mtboone wrote: | | Me#1You#10 wrote: | I have yet to read an exact quote of the comments made by Mr. Pickens. All I've seen are paraphrases already noted here.
I think it's appropriate to reserve comment until the nature of the challenge is specifically understood. You can be confident that Kerry will use any perceived rhetorical opening in an attempt to minimally comply with the stated terms as he spins it with the full backing of the MSM.
My guess is that speculation (at this point) that Kerry might somehow be compelled to unconditionally release his records to the public is widely off the mark.
As to this...
| Quote: | | I would be more than happy to travel to Dallas to meet with you in a mutually agreed upon public forum, or would invite you to join me in Massachusetts for a public dialogue... |
Sorry John Fraud, but I daresay Mr. Pickens will be choosing the terrain. The public spectacle which you so "generously" offer to participate in is hardly the forum for a DETAILED examination of your proffered "winning entry."
You have newsmedia minions aplenty Kerry....publish it and let the games begin.
Update: According to an apparently updated Glen Johnson AP story, Mr. Pickens isn't about to let Kerry define the terms or set the agenda...
| Quote: | Pickens wrote Friday in a letter faxed to Kerry, "I am certainly open to your challenge," but he said he would not pay Kerry unless the senator first provided him with copies of his wartime journals, as well as movies he shot while on patrol and his complete military records for 1971 to 1978.
Pickens said such documentation, which the group has previously sought, would be needed to disprove its ads.
"When you have done so, if you can then prove anything in the ads was materially untrue, I will gladly award $1 million. As you know, I have been a long and proud supporter of the American military and veterans' causes," Pickens wrote.
He also proposed a counter-challenge: "If you cannot prove anything in the Swift Boat ads to be untrue, that you will make a $1 million gift to the charity I am choosing -- the (Congressional) Medal of Honor Foundation."
Boston Globe |
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Please make note of the time span T. Boone is looking for. There is more afoot than meets the eye. But I am sometimes not able to have my post get on for political reasons or some othe wimp ass reason. Now, with maybe my last post that gets posted, I bid you all farewell. Sign me off moderators please. |
You gotta love today's online journal column, James Taranto's "The Best of The Web Today". The last line is a killer! 
"La Corne d'Abondance
In the spirit of the holiday, we thought we'd organize today's column around some things that we're thankful for. First on the list: John Kerry. When he lost the presidential race three years ago, we had mixed feelings. On the one hand, relief, for Kerry seemed ill-suited for such an important job. (For all the complaints we hear these days about President Bush, we can't remember anyone saying the country would be better off if only we'd elected Kerry.) But we also felt regret at the prospect of missing out on all the hilarity a Kerry presidency would have been sure to provide.
But as it turns out, Kerry is a comic perpetual motion machine. Even as the lowly junior senator from Massachusetts, he continues to make us laugh. The latest: A couple of weeks ago we attended The American Spectator's annual dinner in Washington, where energy executive T. Boone Pickens issued a challenge. Pickens said he would pay $1 million to anyone who could prove that any of the allegations the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth made about Kerry were false.
Earlier this week it was reported that Kerry was taking Pickens up on his offer (we noted it Monday). Yesterday Spectator editor Bob Tyrrell sent along the correspondence between Kerry and Pickens (Pickens's reply comes first, then Kerry's original letter), and it turns out there's a lot less to this than meets the eye. Kerry merely asserts that "I am prepared to prove the lie beyond any reasonable doubt" and then demands the moolah:
I would request that your check be made payable to the Paralyzed Veterans of America. . . . My hope is that by sending this money to such a dedicated organization--founded for veterans, by veterans--some good can come out of the ugly smears and lies of the orchestrated campaign you bankrolled in 204 in an attempt to discredit my military record and the record of the men who served alongside me on the Swift Boats of the Mekong Delta.[*]
I would be more than happy to travel to Dallas with you in a mutually agreed upon public forum, or would invite you to join me in Massachusetts for a public dialogue and then together we could visit the Paralyzed Veterans of America in Norwood and see firsthand how we can put your money to good work for our veterans.
Pickens wasn't born yesterday, however. He wrote back noting that Kerry actually had to prove it. He asked Kerry to send "the journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam" and "your military record, specifically your service records for the years 1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during your service."
Well, Boone, good luck trying to get those military records. Kerry promised to release them 1,025 days ago, and an anxious nation (except for a few select reporters) still holds its breath.
* This is in Vietnam, where the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth allege that Kerry served."
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No whiners! |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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kerry has sooo stepped in it...
there are multiple threads over at FReeRepublic with some great comments - a couple to share
| Quote: | | Pickens should offer Kerry $10 million if he can prove ONE of the scurrilous charges he made in front of Congress. |
by DManA
| Quote: | | Instead of swift boating maybe Kerry will now start to claim he’ been T-Booned... |
by JDPendry
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Me#1 said:
| Quote: | | I have yet to read an exact quote of the comments made by Mr. Pickens. All I've seen are paraphrases already noted here. |
Kerry relied on the "paraphrasing" at Redstate and publicly jumped at Boone's challenge without knowing Pickens was referring to the ads.
Mr Pickens made the remark at the Gala celebrating the 40th Anniversary of The American Spectator, so I have been looking for confirmation from those who were there, of just what words were spoken by Mr. Pickens.
From Emmett Tyrrell (Founder of The American Spectator) who was there:
| Quote: | As reported late last week, billionaire investor and environmentalist Boone Pickens, during an address at The American Spectator's 40th Anniversary Gala, promised to pay $1 million to anyone who could find error in the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads, which he helped bankroll in 2004.[/b] The ads were produced to expose the braggart Kerry's incautious claims about his service during the Vietnam War -- that would be the war Kerry participated in briefly before coming home and traducing his fellow comrades in arms with vicious lies and distortions before the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. Remember his more recent claim that he supported our war in Iraq before he opposed it? Inconstancy is in his DNA.
Pickens is perplexed that the majority of Kerry's fellow Swift Boat pilots from Vietnam, who considered Lt. Kerry a ham and a fraud while serving with them and a louse when he maligned them, have been made out to be liars..... |
From James Antle, another member of the Spectator staff:
Those ads were very specific and would require Kerry's records to disprove.
Does Kerry object to putting up $1K of his own money if he can't disprove the ads?
Strange, that money is only at risk if Kerry has been lying all this time!
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for hunting those down Shawa. While they may help to substantiate Pickens' case, they are still paraphrases...not quotes. I'm somewhat surprised that no video of Mr. Pickens' remarks has yet to surface.
BTW...great graphic from a Nov. 17 NY Post story in case you missed it...
"Style: French Elite" |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: |
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From the archives...remember this?
Kerry brought up the dossier thing a year/half ago, and actually presented some of his new 'evidence' in this article.
Apparently he's still digging...
NY Times: Kerry Pressing Swiftboat Case, Long After Loss May 27, 2006
with responses by
T. Lipscomb: The Truth, John Kerry, and The New York Times
Thomas Lipscomb: "John Kerry's Skimmer Scam"
Vietnam POWs React to Times/Kerry Article
He's not the only one still digging into records according to this post by Max Friedman on a FReeperthread
| Quote: | Research on Kerry and company has never stopped and contradictions and possible outright lies have been and are being investigated and doublechecked by historians, including moi.
It takes a lot of time because the Vietnam records are in such bad shape and often nearly impossible to find.
{I have to hedge my statements as some research is being done by others with whom I don’t have direct contact, so I have to wait to see what they have found or didn’t find).
I’ll leave it at that, but time will tell.
Stay tuned for the next several chapters in Kerry versus the truth. There might even be a Christmas Surprise if the gods are friendly and the weather holds. |
and another post here
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