SwiftVets.com

[dafrog]

I'm watching O'reilly, on Fox, last night (Aug 1 and for the life of me can't understand his reluctance to join with the "Swifties". His parting comments left me cold. If one just listens to what these vets are saying, and knowing the bond we have for each other. Most of us would back a fellow Nam vet even before a family member, For the Swifties to turn on John Kerry is a major move. It can't be just politics, Is it just me, or is it one of those things that if you aint been there you don't know? Mike Tompkins South Fla..

[RStauch]

[dafrog]

Richard, I've met Sen. Mccain here in Port Charlotte as he was making a tour with Jeb, He was very quick to say that it didn't take a hero to get shot down. I'm still a bit of a fan of his, not for being a P.O.W. but for not going off the deep end after comming home, I couldn't of done it. I still think O'Reilly should get on the bandwagon, maybe if Jane Fonda gets a little more vocal with her support.... Mike...

[RStauch]

[Paul]

"I'm watching O'reilly, on Fox, last night (Aug 1 and for the life of me can't understand his reluctance to join with the 'Swifties'."

I believe that there's an aspect to this for not those not having been in Vietnam but it's not due to not having "experienced" fighting in Vietnam.

First. I’ll admit that personally, I don’t care for O’Relley.
Second, I 'pulled the plug' on my cable hookup last year deciding that it was a waste of money.

With that said, then I heard O'Reilly state a couple years ago his belief that the Vietnam anti-war movement helped to bring our men home.

Personally, and for whatever it's worth, I don't believe that the present situation is a matter of one's having to have been there. Rather, I strongly suspect that it's more a matter of the consequences of the major demographics change in our nation of the moment and the post-45 culture war in our nation, most accelerated over the past four decades.

By the demographics change I refer to the new reality that the overwhelming majority of our population is now comprised of the members of the Baby Boom generation and our progeny. Because of that, then in effect, we're now essentially a different nation and most certainly a different people when taken as a whole.

O'Reilly didn't serve in Vietnam either. He's also made statements about his time spent as a reporter in central America in the '80s as if that's somehow equivalent for demonstrating that he's not a coward. While it’s a typical Focus on Self mentality of many in this generation, it's irrelevant to his not having served in Vietnam and misses the point of the difference between men like himself and men who did serve in Vietnam, whether drafted or volunteer, entirely.

Like I said in another string, and it's not original and plenty of others have pointed out the same, the syllogism of service was turned on its head in the 1960s by the majority of the Baby Boom generation so that those who served in Vietnam were derided and those who did not claimed themselves as being the ones providing the "real" “service” to our nation.

Starting with a false syllogism and then proceeding upon that logically is how one employs logic to logically arrive at a false conclusion or a lie.

There’s a guilt aspect to this as well in our society that’s tried to deny the sense of guilt and waged an assault on it since the ‘70s. To quote one guru of so many members of the B Boomer generation, Dr. Joyce Brothers, “guilt is powerful tool.” Left and right, the majority of this generation either have to admit to having been wrong or they have to self-justify themselves and their past actions and inactions.

I suspect that we’re still years away from a truly objective study of the United States in southeast Asia. At the moment, too many, right and left wing, are too interested in using it rather than studying the period.

Personally, I’m “old fashioned” on the matter. I believe that the cause was just. However, I will never defend the politically conducting of that war under President’s Kennedy or Johnson, or of our nation’s subsequent abandonment of an ally in 1974 to 1975.

Personally, I strongly agree with others who have stated that they suspect that a comprehensive and objective study in the future will be far kinder to the Americans who served in Vietnam then it will be to our national leaders, Executive and Congressional, responsible for the conduct of that undeclared war or to the rationalizers who purposefully did not serve. Including men like O’Reilly.

Hey, I had an older member of our generation who took a college deferral to stay out of Vietnam who “thanked” me on Veterans Day a couple years ago for having been a veteran. This was before 9-11. Personally, I found that bizarre.

I’ve heard from others for years that they would serve if our nation was ever attacked. I suspect they’ve shown the fallacy of that since 9-11.

I called the majority of our citizens contemptible in another string. I base that on the fact that even when the majority of our citizens claimed support for Iraq in the polls then the majority simultaneously stated opposition to further men or materiel to the effort. That tells me that those people who hold such a contradictory view don’t want to face the issue of what we’re doing there and what our policy and purpose actually is head on and believe that “support” is nothing more than shabby lip service. I’ve been through this friends who are Kerry supporters and others who are Bush supporters.

In the meantime, between Kerry’s yes I’d do it again coupled with his subsequent failure to vote for materiel support to the effort and the current administration claim that our people aren’t over-extended and won’t be while simultaneously extending the rotation of those in Iraq, enacting such as “stop loss” and the so-called “blue to green” recruiting program, I believe we’ve left about 140,000 of our people hanging on the ground in another undeclared war in a place with growing insurgencies, thereby sending a clear signal to our enemies and those who would make themselves our enemies that we lack heart or purpose.

I’m sorry. This is what I see and I believe it is contemptible. I also believe that it’s due primarily to the mentalities of the majority of the members of the Baby Boom generation and their progeny that now comprise the majority of our nation’s population.

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, a pal who commented on General Frank's statements I believe got it right when he stated he read them as the general straddling the fence. As far as I can see, General Franks is no Admiral Tom Moorer who passed away earlier this year. He's not even in the same league.

Anyway, that's my opinion of what the cause is of what you observe and these are some of my reasons for it.

What you report about O'Relly does't surprise me in the least.
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Paul

[dafrog]

Paul..... I agree wholeheartedly with you on us being a different society post 1945. Perhaps I still expect too much from my fellow man (O'Reilly) Dr. Brother's guilt... that issue is so confusing to many vets, including myself.. Many thanks for your well spoken reply. I guess I'm a little slow at reading people and perhaps a little too optmistic at life in general. ...Mike Tompkins Port Charlotte Fla.( P.S. looks like a hurricane.)

[Hueygunner]

[Paul]

"Paul..... I agree wholeheartedly with you on us being a different society post 1945. Perhaps I still expect too much from my fellow man (O'Reilly) Dr. Brother's guilt... that issue is so confusing to many vets, including myself.. Many thanks for your well spoken reply. I guess I'm a little slow at reading people and perhaps a little too optmistic at life in general. ...Mike Tompkins Port Charlotte Fla.( P.S. looks like a hurricane.)"

Hi Mike:

Sorry to see Charley is heading your way. You’re in the same kinda spot on the coast that I am. When they're heading our way then there’s no hoping for us that they'll stay out to sea. All I can say is that I hope and pray it changes course into an unpopulated area or diminishes in strength before making landfall.

As to the thanks, then, hey for nothing really; just the same, you bet, you're welcome.

To be honest, these kind of questions have left me boggled and thinking about for years now too.

My speculation on O’Reilly in particular is because of these other statements I’d heard from him a few years ago and the context he made them in.

In this particular case, and in this matter, then truth to tell, I’m not so sure that you expect too much from O’Reilly because I don’t see that his shabby statements against the Swift Boats Veterans are justified. We may just expect more from O’Reilly then we may ever get, but not anything that isn't reasonable to expect from him. Not getting it is his problem and due to his problems, not yours or any of your own! I’m not sucking up to you. I just don’t see that it’s unreasonable to find his frivolous comments unjust and to expect better from the guy.

As to the rest of the population, then, I still take it individual by individual and try not to read too much into each person. I haven’t given up on our people or our country. I do try to be clear if I can. If I get something wrong and someone gives me my comeuppance when I deserve it, then, hey, I’m no saint and my skin isn’t that thin and I need the same too. . .

As to any guilt over any confusion caused to a Vietnam Veteran, then, for whatever it’s worth, and for my reasons above, personally, I don’t believe any Vietnam Veteran should question the decision that he made to serve, whether volunteer or draftee, and for whatever individual reason he did. That’s a sense of guilt I think that the twisted syllogism I mentioned above tried to impose. The sense of guilt of the others is natural and due to their own conscience. Let the people who chose not to serve and who tried or try to rationalize or overcompensate to avoid their guilty conscience deal with their guilt. That’s their problem.

By the ordinary action of choosing to serve, volunteer or draftee, the Vietnam Veteran provided a demonstration in act that provides an example of the Meaning of service. Personally, then I say good for you for it.

As for thanks, then to be honest, I’m really not the guy to extend them.
But I do believe that there’s a lot of folks who owe you guys thanks: both those for what your efforts did for them and for those for what your efforts tried to do for them. And there’s plenty in Asia who have extended those thanks, but they’re the kind of people who didn’t get listened to much either. Lot's who should possibly never did or never will.

Last, but not least, and not to down play the generally shabby treatment of Vietnam Veterans or any problems, but, largely because of them, hey, when I see that the majority of Vietnam Veterans came back home, made their lives and did ok for themselves and for their families, then for that, good for you. Well done.

Again, good luck and I hope that hurricane diminishes or changes course into an unpopulated area.
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Paul

[Paul]

"I've thought about re-joining the Army . . ."

Hi HG:

I was a sailor once, and young (sorry, couldn't resist!),
so I'd Never think about joining the Army!

Seriously, I know exactly what you mean, all of the way around. To be honest, this one I'm leaving up to the nephew. He was in the Army and serving up in Alaska when the bastards attacked us in September '01. He re-enlisted for orders to the 10th Mountain Div in Oct '01 and just came back from Afghanistan a couple months ago. He's a good man. I'm proud of him.

Ok. Back to the semi-serious vein. . . I "used" to have a smart-ass streak too . . . self-discipline was good for me when I was 18 . . . Not being 18 anymore it's proven valuable over the years and now I'm on my way to learning how to relate to this too: "My mind can write the checks but my body refuses to cash them."

This good; Thanks HG!
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Paul

[Paul]

Man, Charley's a bad one. I hope Mike and his family got out and are doing ok.
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Paul

[PO2]

I e-mailed him after the cited program (the discussion with Dick Morris).

I told him "Thats right Oreilly, you can't comment because you wern't there. I was so I can. People seem to talk the most about the things they know the least about." He knows absolutly nothing about our operating procedures in Nam, nor the process for awards and decorations. If he did. I believe his tune would be different. Trouble is, the general public hasn't a clue about what this speaking out is about. I keep hearing "That was more than 30 years ago." For some of us, Vietnam was just last night, not 30 years ago. The sting of "Baby Killer" being yelled at me still hurts. Will that war never go away? Damn you Kerry for bringing it up again. I was just starting to put it behind me.
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Duty. Honor. Country.
To me, more than just words.