SwiftVets.com

[Armymarinemom]

As a mom who has three sons serving I ask you to do a lot more research. The mainstream press on both your side and my side of the pond has failed the voice freedom miserably. You can’t depend on BBC, ABC, CBS or NBC to give you an understanding of just how much radicalized Islamic groups have grown over the past forty years. There is a lot more too terrorist groups than Al Qaeda Please do a few google searches on :

The Muslim Brotherhood and Nazi’s
Origins of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Movements of Al Qaeda into Iraq after the fall of Afghanistan
Al Qaeda Training Manual
Republic of Kurdistan.
The rights of a num-muslim in a kalifah society

You will find the unhappy conclusion that Jihad had begun upon non-muslims by a small sect during WWII. This group even gave assistance to the Third Reich.

I have greeted troops returning back from the Middle East since they began rotating troops. Most of our troops coming home agree that the region would have and probably have worked to help destroy both of our countries.. Almost all of them complain that they are questioned by the press at terrible moments. They all also complain that they can have days upon days of positive dialogue with our press but they print the one complaint that slips out of their mouths. The biggest concern that they have voiced is that the press will cause a collapse of support from home. Our troops realize that they are on an uphill battle and the media isn’t helping. I have had sons that have served at both fronts and they find the same thing.
The jihads design has always been to move beyond the Middle East. Please do the research on this.

[rlmorel]

I sense that Karen2 isn't really in this forum to hear anything that will make her change her mind, though we should give her the benefit of the doubt.

Karen, you should listen to the speeches of a great Englishman, Winston Churchill. I have them, from Audible.com.

You sound like you need to listen to him, the way your countrymen did back in 1939 (finally).

Mr. Churchill knew the score. He knew that you cannot shirk or appease evil. He knew that there was a price to pay, and that you could pay now, or pay later, but pay you would.

He was of the opinion that if one was going to sacrifice, do it standing up, on the offensive with head held high, rather than sitting in a hole waiting for evil to be visited on you.

Because, Karen, there is Evil in the world today. It is not Tony Blair, it is not George Bush, it is not Halliburton or even, *choke* Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy or John Kerry.

The evil in the world are those who will fly planes into buildings of innocent people. Evil lives in people who worship the cult of self immolation and destruction, based on blind hatred and nothing else. Evil is a man who can butcher 300,000 people over time, and bury them mutilated, maimed and unknown in dusty mass graves. Evil is men who strap explosives on themselves and walk into the middle of a wedding party.

Karen, war is terrible. People are going to die, often unfairly, in the flower of their lives, before they have ever had the chance to make love, see the wonders of the world and gain wisdom from growing old. But in a world of evil, there is no choice.

What is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (as well as other numerous, anonymous operations in deserts, jungles, cities and offices around the world) is no less a fight against evil than the fight against Nazism and Communism. (Those who have Communist sympathies, please spare me and read "The Gulag Archipelago" instead.)

We must stand up to this. This is not a struggle about "root causes". This is a struggle against the evil that threatens the very fabric of civilization.

We are at war, Karen2. We have been at war since Munich 1972, and we never knew it. On 9/11, most people knew that we were at war, but when life is comfortable, how bad can a war be? Now you hear some voices saying "We need to move on from 9/11, put it in the past." Now, we all get to go to work, have families, go to parties and watch movies, while the battle is fought in the dark and light on the other side of the world. We have no idea.

I ask you to read this excerpt from Churchill's most famous speech. This is as relevant today as it was when he gave it.

"Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."[/quote]
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Military Brat, USN Aviation Machinist Mate 2nd Class 1975-1979

[low26]

[Bob Chamberlain]

Right on!!

If you can read that speech of Churchill's and not get shivers down your spine you are not alive.

[rlmorel]

And one more thing, Karen2. The military is not designed to protect the lives of military personnel. It is designed to protect the lives of their fellow citizens who are not in the military. You sometimes hear politicians say they will never put military personnel in dangerous situations. Unfortunately, it is the job of the military, if needed, to be in dangerous situations. The best we can do is train, equip and use them wisely. And thus, we should not be thinking primarily how to get those soldiers out of Iraq and Afghanistan. We should be thinking about letting them do the job correctly so we will be less likely to have to go back in. And that is the more difficult job.
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Military Brat, USN Aviation Machinist Mate 2nd Class 1975-1979

[forgivenjojo]

Karen, you accuse us of wrapping ourselves in our flag. I suggest to you that sitting on the sidelines and maybe getting a few years of peace out of the deal and maybe even letting it be your childrens or grandchildrens problem is SELFISH. So I like to think that I am not wrapping myslef in the American Flag, but that we are dropping the coat of selfishness and exposing our true colors. That flag of red, white and blue means something. We choose to keep dying and fighting the good fight. Jesus called this "dying to self". Giving up what you want for the benefit of something more important than your own self.

We would love more than anything to just sit on our rumpus and drink tea and have some pralines. <-----probably didnt spell that right.

Karen think of this please. We are in Iraq. Basically we find ourselves in the middle of "Terrorist Alley" Syria is on one side and Iran on the other.

We are all up in their Kool-aid. If we need to turn around and ***** slap either of these two, we dont have to worry about from which angle we are going to get it done.

It is far better to be in your enemy's back yard than in your own and wondering what he is up to.

P.S. I was stationed at R.A.F. Mildenhal from 93-95 Security Police

Jody in Texas

God bless and dont be discouraged. Jesus is the only answer to your problem.

[rlmorel]

I agree, the imagery of "broad, sunlit uplands" contrasting with "abyss of a new Dark Age" really gets the message across in a way that makes you want to steel yourself for anything. He knew how to speak, that man. President Bush is no Churchill, but I think he believes as strongly.
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Military Brat, USN Aviation Machinist Mate 2nd Class 1975-1979

[rlmorel]

Ivan, to those of us who follow these things and think about them, we have nothing but praise for the British! Thank God for the English! While the French and the Germans did all they could to sabatoge (and certainly cost us the lives of some of our soldiers), England stood tall and showed what it is made of!

We salute all of you. Many of you Brits understand well the concept of not taking it lying down!
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Military Brat, USN Aviation Machinist Mate 2nd Class 1975-1979

[Bob Chamberlain]

I'd have to agree that President Bush is no Churchill, at least as far as public speaking is concerned. But that is not all his fault either. Back in Churchill's day, leaders were supposed to be dignified and formal. Today we expect a President to roll up his shirtsleeves and be personable. I don't know of any American President who could get away with delivering a speech like Churchill did. The media would brand him as pompous and remote.

But I do think that if we would quit nit-picking President Bush to death and let him get on with the job, we might find he could do as good a job as Churchill did. Which was far from perfect, but overall, pretty damn good.

[Beatrice1000]

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

I beg your pardon for missing this thread - I thought it was posted by our good guy Brit friend and didn't pay any attention to what was going on, here.

Missed a troll.

I'll try to stay on top of 'em a little better.


Thank you to all the civil and reasoned responses! You guys are great!
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[Indianbaboon]

memories are so short and people are so selfish

maybe it's cuz my other hom isnt' so far away from all the action (India) and my parents live in the city where islamic advance into India was stopped. On my side, women are doctors, teachers, engineers, anything they want to be. They're also the undisputed heads of household. ON the other side, not so pretty.

[Army Brat]

My grandmother used to tell me the worst time to give birth to a son is 18 years before a war begins... My family has a very long tradition of military service. My grandfather served on the Big E in WWII... My son knows he will also go into the service. Maybe not as a career officer like my father. But he wants to serve... I think about him when I hear people like Karen. I wonder how short-sighted she/they can be. I tick time in my head as I hope that a common enemy is vanquished before a certain birthday. But I would send my son proudly to fight for freedom. My heart would break more if he had no solid principles for which he was willing to fight....

Umm... and one other thing... forgivenjojo, you referred to tea and pralines.... You're point about sitting on one's rumpus was well taken. But while I'm very fond of (most of) the British, I have to say pralines are a Southern dessert.... Since I'm (proudly) from the original region of "rednecks", I vote we give Karen just crumpets instead.

Army Bratt

[one more captins mast]

No. 1 Bob Chamberlin has it correct.


Plus, go to the Saudi Embasy web site in D. C here in US or to the

one in England, read it, read it all, that is the message that

they have, they want to change the entire planet to their way of

thinking, and when given the chance or when they sense any

weakness they will use the methods they used to expand

Islam in the first place.


Thanks for your support, Tony Blair, and who ever advised him

got it right, there is no choice, unless you want to live under

a royal family that likes to kill christians "just because" the

Koran tells them to do so.
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the strange mr aj

[Alan]

Karen2 has a point, doesn't she?

ADMIN NOTE: Well, I could guess that you'd say that, posting from her computer and all.
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I am posting from Karen2's Computer!