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ted
Former Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | ted wrote: | Of course, that's the whole crux of the argument. And that's the part that hasn't been proven, IN MY OPINON.
How can you reconcile the handful (not the whole 200) of guys who claim that Kerry falsified his reports versus the handful of guys who claim to have been on Kerry's boat and say that he did not? |
It is easier for you to believe the five people in his boat who served UNDER him than it is to believe a group of 254 of his peers and superiors? 254 people who served in exactly the same boats, exactly the same circumstances, exactly the same ROE? |
No cirumstances are ever the same, especially in war. And again, (and I have read all the qutoes available on the web site) hardly any of the quotes are of actual "allegations" of Kerry fabricating his after reports which led to his deorations. In fact, the majority of the signed people (254 +/-) have said nothing specific other than simply signing the letter. So in many regards I consider the entire argument that it's "254 vs 5" as political spin (in my opinion of course).
In fact, according to this page:
http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=SwiftVetQuotes
19 people are quoted here. 19 of 254 are actually quoted saying anything other than what is in the letter. AND only 1 of those, Hibberd, has anything to say about Kerry falsifying an injury for a PH. ONE!
Your DNC-propagated argument is specious and a distraction.
I'll pass on the DNC arguments, I have a mind of my own thank you. |
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Most of it probably has been sanitized.But there must be something there that Kerry doesn't want out.Or maybe something that should be there is missing? |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | | Most of it probably has been sanitized.But there must be something there that Kerry doesn't want out.Or maybe something that should be there is missing? |
I used to think so, too.
But, at this point, I think his stonewalling on the records issue is just so that he can say, "See, I told you there was nothing ugly in there!" if they ever ARE released.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Ted,
Are you really that stupid? Those 19 quotes you cite are NOT the evidence in the book.
Why don't you save us and yourself a lot of time and just get the book. Get the information straight from the horses' mouths rather than from us here.
Methinks you just want to argue. You've been provided all sorts of information and you don't care.
Do a search for "Letson" and you'll find information on problems with the first purple heart. That's just ONE example.
Then come back when you've had a chance to read the book... |
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Shane's PopPop
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 53
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ted wrote:
| Quote: | | my statement was intended to point out that the release of 100% of Kerry's records - even if the exonorated all of the charges against Kerry that have been made so far - will not stop the attacks on Kerry. |
I am 100% sure that if JFnK releases 100% of his records and they proved that he didn't lie and isn't lying now, I for one would stop picking on him for his shortened tour of duty. But then again their is 1971!
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This space for rent! |
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ted
Former Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| You GottaBeKidding wrote: | Does anyone other than me feel that even if Kerry walked up to Ted and said, "I liked about every medal and every war experience," that Ted still wouldn't believe him.
Ted, I think the number of men who signed affidavits is something like 60. It's not a "handful."
The "handful" who support Kerry didn't all serve on his boat. Rassmann didn't. He was on the boat one day, and some accounts indicate he was on the 3 boat that hit the mine and others indicate that he was on Kerry's boat. Regardless, he didn't spend much time on Kerry's boat.
Kerry's "band of brothers" were likely inexperienced and would not be able to accurately judge whether he was a good leader or not. That's like asking third graders whether their teacher is a good teacher. That's not how it works. |
My specific point about those who served directly under Kerry has nothing to do with their evaluations about Kerry as a "good" or "bad" leader.
My point about those who served under him is that they would be the closest to the action and the best eyewitnesses to the incidents that led to Kerry's decorations.
Rassman's testimony relates to what he says is a heroic action on the part of Kerry and on why Kerry got the Bronze Star. I don't think Rassman wrote any of the fitreps. |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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By your logic, the passengers in a car crash would be good witnesses, whereas the pedestrian on the sidewalk that witnessed the accident, wouldn't.
Right?
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Bye bye, Boston Straggler! |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ted,
That's like saying that a guy's fellow bank robbers are more believable witnesses than customers in the bank that was robbed, or that the drunk driver in an accident is a more credible witness than an expert witness in accident resconstruction or that someone who saw a car accident is less credible than the driver who caused the wreck.
The other people on the other boats (some of whom were also in the water) do not agree with Rassman's account. The only thing they all agree on is that Kerry picked up Rassman from the water. Rassman claims there was enemy gunfire, the crew members of the other three boats dispute it.
So, do you believe Rassman or the other boat crew members. Rassman was swimming on the bottom of the river according to his story (one of them, anyway). |
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one more captins mast
LCDR
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:31 pm Post subject: Dear Ted, |
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"this is just about what my private e-mail to our little ted said,
do not mind saying so its more refined than my usual, 8&&^5$3
Ted, if you try to sleep tonite and you think its a dream , could be
a dream or real, it will look like a Demon on a Huge white horse
the Demon will have red hot eyes, and they will be looking at you
at Kerry, and his fan club press people, the eyes will not look away
they, even when you scurry away, when you look back , he will be
closer, is it fear, is it real, somewhere back in your mind something
says "ITS HISTORY" its come to see me, its eyes SEAR ME THEY
SEAR INTO ME , a small voice somewhere says, "save us, save us
the dark side is near. ITS NEAR THIS IS OUR LAST CHANCE.
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the strange mr aj |
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | kmudd wrote: | | Most of it probably has been sanitized.But there must be something there that Kerry doesn't want out.Or maybe something that should be there is missing? |
I used to think so, too.
But, at this point, I think his stonewalling on the records issue is just so that he can say, "See, I told you there was nothing ugly in there!" if they ever ARE released. |
Great point. |
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air_vet
PO2
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 374
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ted wrote: | | Rassman's testimony relates to what he says is a heroic action on the part of Kerry |
Hey, HE was in the water - how does his point of view (water level) give him ANY idea of what was going on in the area? |
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ted
Former Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| You GottaBeKidding wrote: | Ted,
Are you really that stupid? Those 19 quotes you cite are NOT the evidence in the book.
Why don't you save us and yourself a lot of time and just get the book. Get the information straight from the horses' mouths rather than from us here.
Methinks you just want to argue. You've been provided all sorts of information and you don't care.
Do a search for "Letson" and you'll find information on problems with the first purple heart. That's just ONE example.
Then come back when you've had a chance to read the book... |
No, I'm not that stupid, but thanks for the compliment. But that's all that they offer as far as direct quotes, other than the Letson accusation (which I have read in DETAIL, FYI).
The point is that "going and buying the book" for these afadavits is ridiculous. If O'Neill really wants to get this story out, then he needs to put the afadavits on the website. If the goal is to spread the information and make people aware of 60 people who TRULY HAVE LEGITIMATE accusations against Kerry, then put them on the web. Don't go on talk shows and talk this up without like he is doing without having all the backup copy on your website. At least that's my opinon.
And it totally cracks me up to have you guys tell me that I should shut up about this topic until I have read the book, when you are quite willing to go on and about how truthful these accusations are without having read any of it yourselves. I think that says volumes about just how partisan this issue really truly is. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ted wrote: | | My point about those who served under him is that they would be the closest to the action and the best eyewitnesses to the incidents that led to Kerry's decorations. |
As you've lurked here for weeks, I'm surprised that you haven't seen this debunked many times, before.
If I'm standing on the sidewalk and witness an accident, I have a better view of events than the passengers of either car involved.
The enlisted people on Kerry's boat were certainly not privy to what went on in the O Club or the tents/barracks or the "scuttlebutt" among the other officers pertaining to Kerry.
They almost certainly didn't have "the big picture."
| Quote: | | Rassman's testimony relates to what he says is a heroic action on the part of Kerry and on why Kerry got the Bronze Star. I don't think Rassman wrote any of the fitreps. |
Rassman also supposedly "put Kerry in for a Silver Star." Wonder how he did that, considering he was an Army SF guy?
Rassman was by his own accounts, under water through most of the action. No doubt he would be grateful to whoever pulled him out of the drink.
But he's provided so many versions of the story - which one do you trust?
Even his story of how he happened to make contact with Kerry again after all these years has two versions.
Sorry, I think that Rassman is not a credible source for information.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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This issue is being discussed at a micro level, examining each and every minute detail. Which I do believe is necessary (and I have done for the most part, including reading the book), but what I really believe the main question posed should be, "Is John Kerry Fit For Command"? As the book states there are several reasons to believe not. We can decipher all of the comments about the awards and events that occurred during Vietnam (by the way, I do definitely side with SBVT on this), but what should really be analyzed is his activity following the war. As a potential Commander In Chief, would he be able to gain the respect and admiration of the majority of the military? I'll admit, I know very little about security clearances, but I would be willing to wager if someone who had the history of Kerry, they would not be even given a second look at obtaining a top level security clearance. Is this someone who could competenly be Commander In Chief? Someone who throws his ribbons/medals away could not possibly be considered as an effective leader & motivator of the armed forces. I sincerely believe if elected president (god forbid) he could jeopardize the United States to its enemies. Personally, I simply cannot trust someone who met with the enemy while still a commissioned Naval Officer. What I'm trying to say is, take what is already known and established as fact (ie Paris meetings, ribbon throwing) and ask yourself Ted, is John Kerry "Fit For Command"?
Kerry's medals and purple hearts can be discussed at great lengths, and argued by both sides, but look at the much larger picture!
(By the way, the affadavits are not in the book...Unless they are the short quotations listed usually at the beginning of the chapters, and sometimes within the chapters. I have a feeling the actual affadavits released are of more substance, and are not in the book, as the book would be MUCH longer). |
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ted
Former Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | By your logic, the passengers in a car crash would be good witnesses, whereas the pedestrian on the sidewalk that witnessed the accident, wouldn't.
Right? |
I see your point, except that the other "witnesses" might have been on a boat several hundered yards away, at night, in the fog or under attack themselves and not exactly in the best postion to be a "pedistrian" watching an accident happen in front of them.
Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable in the best of circumstances, let alone 35 years after the fact. And that includes the men on Kerry's boat too. |
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