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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:04 am Post subject: Re: A response to some of your questions. |
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| tg-l wrote: | | Paul Woll wrote: | | ... Kerry said in 1986: "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling, and that's what I thought I was going to be doing." |
Kerry was about to be drafted, his request for deferrment had been denied. How does one go about volunteering for a specific duty? Did all of you get to choose your position? |
Oh no... but you do fill out duty preference sheets and the detailers do try to assign people to something they've asked for.
I'm still not sure how Kerry got our of a three-year tour of the Gridley after only seven months to go to Swifts, but if he was as big an @$$ on the Gridley as he appears to have been the rest of his life, I wouldn't be surprised if the CO of the Gridley hadn't jumped at the chance to sign off on Kerry's request to go to Swifts. Make him someone else's problem.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother
Last edited by Navy_Navy_Navy on Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ted
Former Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Why would Kerry lie? |
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[quote="Beatrice1000"] | ted wrote: | I've been reading all this stuff. I have read everything on the SwiftVets site, seen the John O'Neill / Kerry debate on Cavett, read the PDF docs that the DoD released on Kerry and I just don't get it. /quote]
Ted - I've been reading this thread. But the most interesting thing you said was at the beginning:
"I've read everything on the SwiftVets site, seen the debate, etc" and you conclude that you "just don't get it." Well, I'm happy to help you out with this, because I do "get it" -- that sort of makes me one of thousands of teachers for you, huh? I'll give you a hint -- a place to begin: truth and honor and courage and love of country. At least that's a start. Perhaps you need to take a break from this site and get out on the internet and study these concepts in depth so you will be able to understand what we are talking about. Just a suggestion. |
Uh, that's funny, because that's exactly what I have done. I have looked around the web in addition to this website, I have read the stories out there, and that's what I have based my opinion on. |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:25 am Post subject: |
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In 1970, I was in 2/2/2 at LeJeune for a few months following my training. I got The Word I was getting orders for Gitmo. I was [understatement]not amused[/understatement], but I knew there HAD to be *some* way to get out of a year in Cuba.
My First Sergeant allowed as the only way to get out of going was to volunteer for WESTPAC, and that was a virtual guarantee of an RVN tour. I said "Let's do it." And it got done. I got my orders on Christmas Eve.
Fortunately for me, my SRB caught the eye of some detailer who was aware of a better fit for my talents on Okinawa.
But I was just a lowly enlisted kid, I had no clue about detailers or Navy Manpower, although MANY years later I would end up engineering software programs for OP-12 for planning and programming officer and enlisted billet requirements.
And the story about the detailers having dartboards in the Pentagon is absolutely false. They worked in the Navy Annex.
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Why would Kerry lie? |
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| ted wrote: | | Uh, that's funny, because that's exactly what I have done. I have looked around the web in addition to this website, I have read the stories out there, and that's what I have based my opinion on. |
I notice that you don't mention starting with honor, courage or love of country.
You do have to have these factors embedded in your character before anything that Kerry has done will offend you.
You can't possibly have a clue about the pain this man has caused his entire generation of soldiers and their families and "not get it."
You can't possibly understand that this man was instrumental in the rapid withdrawal of our troops from Vietnam and the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of American sympathizers and loyalists and "not get it."
You can't possibly understand that this man committed treason by consorting with the enemy - and bringing the enemy's propaganda back to the US Congress and his speeches in the VVAW without "getting it."
So what you have proven is that you understand nothing.
That's fine. Honor, duty, country - you either have them or you don't.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:48 am Post subject: |
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"I will not lie, cheat, or steal nor tolerate anyone who does."
If you look carefully at that simple statement which is the cornerstone of INTEGRITY in military service, then you can get a sense of moral obligation involved. It's not JUST that Kerry lies, it's that we can NOT tolerate it. That's not an option, you see.
It's a requisite and necessary quality for everyone that raises their hand, takes the oath, and puts on the uniform.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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Polaris
Rear Admiral
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Ted,
Cipher and navy_navy_navy are right. Character is an abosolute requirement to be a military officer. These lies and evasions have proven that Sen. Kerry lacks character. Without that, nothing else matters because he is unfit for high office in time of war. Period.
You either understand this or you don't.
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-Polaris
Truth is Beauty |
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ted
Former Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Why would Kerry lie? |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | ted wrote: | | Uh, that's funny, because that's exactly what I have done. I have looked around the web in addition to this website, I have read the stories out there, and that's what I have based my opinion on. |
I notice that you don't mention starting with honor, courage or love of country.
You do have to have these factors embedded in your character before anything that Kerry has done will offend you.
You can't possibly have a clue about the pain this man has caused his entire generation of soldiers and their families and "not get it."
You can't possibly understand that this man was instrumental in the rapid withdrawal of our troops from Vietnam and the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of American sympathizers and loyalists and "not get it."
You can't possibly understand that this man committed treason by consorting with the enemy - and bringing the enemy's propaganda back to the US Congress and his speeches in the VVAW without "getting it."
So what you have proven is that you understand nothing.
That's fine. Honor, duty, country - you either have them or you don't. |
I do *get* it, folks. I understand what you are saying. I understand the concept of honor and of integrity and I also understand that there are lots of vets from Vietnam who don't feel about Kerry as you do - AND THEY HAVE HEARD THESE SAME STORIES too. Somehow they have been able to let it go, or perhaps they agree with Kerry and what he did. I suppose those guys are all communist sympahtiezers and traitors, too?
Personally, I was not in the military. My father was in Vietnam in the early 60s as an "advisor" and he served on the U.S.S. Mt Baker as a supply officer. I certainly understand from him just what it means to be in the military and to serve your country. And you know what? He feels the same exact way that I do about this - we have talked about it. He's not in "pain" over what Kerry said in the 70s. My dad never protested the war, it's not his style - but you know what? Kerry had every right in the world to speak out as he did, even if he said things that might seem outrageous now. He has apoligized for what he said, for things that were "over the top" or said out of anger. Perhaps it's too little, too late for some people, but no matter what kind of innuendo or distortions of his words people might make, I have no doubt that Kerry is and was a patriot at all times. You can disagree with what he said, but I think that calling him a communist sympathizer or giving aid and comfort to the enemey is just plain ridiculous. (the same can not be said of Jane Fonda by the way, but John Kerry was no Jane Fonda, no matter how hard people try to make it look that way).
Additionally, Navy_Navy_Navy, I find the nature of your attack on me to be quite ridiculous. The idea that because you or others have served in the military and I have not means that I can't possibly understand the concept of honor, duty and country UNLESS I AGREE WITH YOU THAT KERRY IS A TRAITOR is beyond lame.
I salute you and every soldier for their service to our country - we owe you a debt, but that doesn't make you "more equal" than me, which is what you seem to imply. Someone in here made the point that Kerry can't hide behind his decorations, and I submit that neither can you simply wrap yourself in the flag to make yourself a patriot.
Being a responsible citizen, regardless of military service requires the exact same honor, integirty and love of country that you seem to think military people or flag waving people have a sole claim to, and that is just a complete and total fallicy. I do take great offense at your comments, I think they betray the general attitude towards my posts from most of the comments in here, and from what I have read in other posts, not to mention the rude and threatening PM's I have gotten in this forum from one of your "vets".
And as I write this last paragraph, I recognize that my time has come to an end here. Perhaps I lasted a little bit longer than other "trolls" who have floated in an out of SwiftVet forums and I'm sure you will chalk me up to just another "DNC Hack" or "Kerry sympathizer", or simply just delete my posts and feel good about yourself for shutting me down.
Good bye and good luck.
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Help! I drank the Kerry KookAde! |
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Polaris
Rear Admiral
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Ted,
I think you have been treated very well here. That said, there is a difference between being a veteran and not. I am not saying the service is for everyone, nor am I saying that you are unamerican for doing other things.
That said, I still don't think you really understand the anger here. I will try to explain. Kerry didn't come back and protest the war. Many veterans did and I suspect that most here wouldn't have any problems with that.
However, the service is built in character, honor, and integrity. By impuning his uniform, country, and service he went over the line because he cost the lives of his fellow soldiers and sailors....but it is even worse. He acutally gave aid and comfort to the enemy by treating with them in Paris. No reasonable veteran or serviceman I know of will accept or forgive that. I don't and I served a good 20 years after Kerry.
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-Polaris
Truth is Beauty |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Why would Kerry lie? |
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[quote="ted"]...I have read everything on the SwiftVets site../quote] | Beatrice1000 wrote: | | ...study these concepts ..start with truth and honor and courage and love of country ... |
| ted wrote: | | ...Uh, that's funny, because that's exactly what I have done. |
That was fast!
Last edited by Beatrice1000 on Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Why would Kerry lie? |
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| Ted - read my signature. Bye. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Bye, Ted.
Be sure to brush up on reading comprehension while you're gone, eh?
You don't seem to have demonstrated much understanding of what anyone here has told you.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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MJB
LCDR
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Define "patriot" and explain to me how John Kerry fits your definition. Use examples. Extra credit given for defining "character" and explaining how John Kerry has it.
MJB |
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John David
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 5
Location: 26 yrs Retired Military
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Wow I just spent two hours reading all of this fantastic wisdom and logic and I came to one conclusion. KERRY IS THE DEVIL!  
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Ted , Kerry met at least twice with the enemy while our troops were still fighting.That is different than just protesting on the street. What could Kerry offer the North Vietnamese when he met with them ? Did he encourage them and tell them he is doing everything possible to have the USA to pull out of Vietnam? What did they do for Kerry? Did they offer advise or money to help organize protests? Why is Kerry's current spokesman claiming Kerry didn't intend to meet witrh the North Vietnamese ? Is that a lie when he says that ? If he is lying claiming it was an accidental meeting how did that happen ? Did Kerry run into the North Vietnamese at some Paris nightclub or what ? If Kerry is lying about his intent to meet with the North Vietnamese what else about the meeting is he lying about ? |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Polaris wrote: | | No reasonable veteran or serviceman I know of will accept or forgive that. |
My Dad served in WWII. He served in a division that followed Patton's army and dealt with cleaning up the German snipers still left hidden in defeated towns. He received two purple hearts, the first for the kind of "scratch" (a brick fell on him) that put him right back on the battlefield, the second for a bullet then went through his midsection just missing his spine.
My Dad was an Eisenhower Republican most of his life. He voted for Nixon twice. (As a youth, I worked for Nixon.) Since then, he has gone back and forth between the two parties, but mostly he keeps quiet about his vote. I was surprised last year when he said he was supporting Kerry. As a moderate Democrat, I was talking about supporting Bob Graham back then, but my Dad had been watching C-Span, listened to all the speeches, and he thought Kerry was the most articulate and the most experienced. My Dad knows about Kerry's anti-war activities, doesn't agree with everything he did, but he views Vietnam now as a mistake, a mistake for which he doesn't blame Kerry. When I spoke with him, my Dad viewed the Iraq War as a mistake, was greatly disappointed that Colin Powell didn't argue more forcefully against it, but wasn't ready to go with a peace candidate like Dean.
One can disagree with my Dad and I often have, but I personally know no other more honorable, reasonable person than him. I am going to see my folks in September. He probably will at that time talk about his thinking, but maybe not. Maybe, in light of these new allegations, he will have changed his thinking regarding Kerry. I don't know, but either way I am not going to question his honor or his reasonableness or his love of country just because he agrees or disagrees with me. |
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