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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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 Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Depends on whether you're facing forward or aft. 
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Bye bye, Boston Straggler! |
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4moreyears
Former Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Navymomx2 wrote: | Oh this is too good, hubby and I have been going over a few things and are still looking at stuff regarding all this, but we found this and thought it was interesting.
Look at #8 of the graphic and what it says about Rassmann then look at his account of the story from this below news article from the Oregonian dated July 29th, 2004.
| Quote: | Rassmann gave a detailed retelling to the Oregon delegates. The former Green Beret remembered sitting on the deck of the pilothouse of Kerry's boat, eating a chocolate chip cookie, when an explosion under a nearby boat blew him into the Bay Hap River and caused Kerry to smash his arm.
Rassmann said he swam to the bottom of the river to avoid being run over by the escaping Swift boats. But every time he came up for air, the enemy shot at him. He swam for the north bank, expecting to be captured and probably executed.
After five or six dives, Rassmann said, he looked up and saw Kerry's boat coming back for him. He met the boat at the center of the river and then grabbed a rope "scramble net" hanging over the bow. He climbed the arch of the bow but could not pull himself over the lip. |
In the Oregonian article he was blown off Kerry's boat from an explosion under a NEARBY boat. Yet in #8 of the graphic Kerry's boat is rocked by an unidentified explosion. The 2 boats were no where near each other as far as the 3 and the 94 for the explosion from the 3 to affect the 94.
Note also to avoid being run over by the escaping boats he would go to the bottom of the river, BUT there were no other boats around the 94, so why would he have to dive to the bottom to avoid them. |
ALICE B'TOKLESS choclate chip cookies???
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 kerry returned to the United States on July 22, 1971, held a press conference publicly calling on President Nixon... for the surrender of the United States to North Vietnam. |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Depends on whether you're facing forward or aft |
Which begs the question: Does he know his aft from a hole in the ground?
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The former Green Beret remembered sitting on the deck of the pilothouse of Kerry's boat, eating a chocolate chip cookie, when an explosion under a nearby boat blew him into the Bay Hap River and caused Kerry to smash his arm. |
This sort of assumes he was eating the chocolate chip cookie with one hand and carrying a 20 pound M-60 (and one would hope, a belt of 7.62 in it) to replace the one that "came apart" in the bow gunner's hands, right? While sitting on the pilot house. While walking along the edge of the boat. While the unexplained explosion was lifting a multiton boat two FEET out of the water. While not causing any damage significant enough to prevent the boat from making a high speed turn to starboard. While leaving the boat seawothy enough to run down the canal. And back. And tow the disabled -3 boat....
I think I've got the story straight, now.
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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neverforget
Vice Admiral
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 875
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| I think I see the strategy now. The Washington Post and New York Times are going to carry the water by obtaining (identified as) official documents and dribble them out as long as something in them supports Kerry without Kerry ever having to reveal he wrote them. |
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efuseakay
Ensign
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| But according to Rood, he was Skipper of PCF-23... What rank was Chenoweth and why does the WaPo graphic show him as in command of PCF-23? |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But according to Rood, he was Skipper of PCF-23... What rank was Chenoweth and why does the WaPo graphic show him as in command of PCF-23? |
Different days. Mr. Rood was in command on the incident of the 28th of February. The WaPo graphic is for the 13th of March. At least, that's my take on it. As to why (or whether) Mr. Rood was not in command on the 13th is not known to me.
It COULD be that the WaPo is wrong. They have a long and glorious history of not getting all the facts straight.
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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efuseakay
Ensign
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| cipher wrote: | | Quote: | | But according to Rood, he was Skipper of PCF-23... What rank was Chenoweth and why does the WaPo graphic show him as in command of PCF-23? |
Different days. Mr. Rood was in command on the incident of the 28th of February. The WaPo graphic is for the 13th of March. At least, that's my take on it. As to why (or whether) Mr. Rood was not in command on the 13th is not known to me.
It COULD be that the WaPo is wrong. They have a long and glorious history of not getting all the facts straight. |
Yeah it is either one of two things as you said... different incidences, or WaPo is wrong... but we know the Liberals just love WaPo... so this graphic must be killing them... 
Could Kerry and crew have made up the "unidentified explosion" in an effort to clear them from bugging out like they did after PCF-3 was hit? That's what it seems like to me at least...
Interesting how Rassmann has been saying how he kept diving underwater to avoid being hit by the other boats... but those other boats were still back helping the crew of PCF-3 and nowhere near him... |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Washingtion Post Graphic shows Kerry Fleeing other boats |
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| integritycounts wrote: | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/graphics/swiftboat_082104.html
This graphic shows Kerry leaving all the other boats behind. |
But they seem to be saying he just happened to get a bit ahead of the others and then the PCF-3 struck the mine. Now they're also saying that the mine was remotely detoned. Are the Swifties also saying that?
They have Kerry leading Droz. But I thought Chenoweth led Kerry to the right, and that Droz came to one side of the 3 boat to help stabilize it?
And they show Alston in the 'gun tub'. I thought it was Frederick Short, who had just come over to the 94 a week or so, before?
And even the Kerry 'mine' was far away, how could it knock off Rassman and not damage the boat? Rassman was protected by the boathouse. Did Kerry report the 94 damaged, at all? |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:28 am Post subject: |
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[quote="cipher"] | Quote: | | But according to Rood, he was Skipper of PCF-23... What rank was Chenoweth and why does the WaPo graphic show him as in command of PCF-23? |
Because he was. Pease was OIC of the PCF-3.
| Quote: |
Could Kerry and crew have made up the "unidentified explosion" in an effort to clear them from bugging out like they did after PCF-3 was hit? |
Couldn't it just be that Kerry has, in the past, said that ALL the boats fled. That means he didn't, when saying that, admit that the PCF-3 was struck, at all. He was saying there was only one mine, but that it hit only somewhere near the PCF-94 - injuring Kerry (which is why the mine went off, I suppose).
Isn't that one of Kerry's stories? I mean, as I wrote in the journal, you have to be careful as you learn more about Kerry that you don't start rooting in hindsight that the enemy would have better shots, particularly for his second PH. Keep it straight in ones mind, you know? |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:52 am Post subject: |
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That graphic doesn't really flatter Senator Kerry much. It implies he only turned around when he realized Rassmann was no longer aboard.
(refer the the WaPo graphic) 9. Kerry continues downstream until he realizes that Rassmann is no longer on board. Kerry turns the boat and returns to pick up Rassmann
Which makes one wonder: If Rassmann hadn't fallen overboard, would that dotted line have just continued straight back to the LST in the bay?
The very thought kind of turns my stomach.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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Navymomx2
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 149
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Washingtion Post Graphic shows Kerry Fleeing other boats |
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| sevry wrote: | | integritycounts wrote: | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/graphics/swiftboat_082104.html
This graphic shows Kerry leaving all the other boats behind. |
But they seem to be saying he just happened to get a bit ahead of the others and then the PCF-3 struck the mine. Now they're also saying that the mine was remotely detoned. Are the Swifties also saying that?
They have Kerry leading Droz. But I thought Chenoweth led Kerry to the right, and that Droz came to one side of the 3 boat to help stabilize it?
And they show Alston in the 'gun tub'. I thought it was Frederick Short, who had just come over to the 94 a week or so, before?
And even the Kerry 'mine' was far away, how could it knock off Rassman and not damage the boat? Rassman was protected by the boathouse. Did Kerry report the 94 damaged, at all? |
According to the After Action Report it says:
BATTLE DAMAGE
PCF 94 NOT CAPABLE OF EXECUTING MARKET TIME PATROL
TWO STBD AND ONE PORT MAIN CABIN WINDOWS BLOWN OUT.
VRC-46 RADIO AND ALL REMOTE UNITS PILOT HOUSE INOP.
AC WIRING SHORTED OUT. ONAN GENERATOR INOP. STEERAGE CONTROL AFTER HELM INOP. STBD BILGE PUMP BROKEN. SCREWS CURLED AND CHIPPED. RADAR GEAR BOX FROZEN. MAIN ENGINES EXPERIENCED RPM DROP.
Earlier on in the description of the incident it also says PCF 94 towed PCF 3 as bucket brigade controlled flooding.
I have found nothing about PCF 3's damage.
It is curious to me that 4 people are listed in the report with injuries from PCF 3 and with all the damage to PCF 94 (Kerry's boat) he is the only one with injuries or atleast that's all I can confirm from Kerry's boat with injuries is him with the information from the report which is posted to his website. |
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Bostonian
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| cipher wrote: | | That graphic doesn't really flatter Senator Kerry much. |
It doesn't flatter him at all. It looks like he put the pedal to the metal to get the hell out of there.
Then you have the graphic of the boat. You see Kerry in the cabin (alone) and Rassman walking precariously in an area with no hand rails or anything. The picture shows an "unidentified explosion" but it sure looks to me like Kerry knocked Rassman off by accident.
I wish they'd included Kerry's own writeup of the damage to his PCF: the absence of bullet holes is most telling. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| 4moreyears wrote: | In the Oregonian article he was blown off Kerry's boat from an explosion under a NEARBY boat. Yet in #8 of the graphic Kerry's boat is rocked by an unidentified explosion. The 2 boats were no where near each other as far as the 3 and the 94 for the explosion from the 3 to affect the 94.
Note also to avoid being run over by the escaping boats he would go to the bottom of the river, BUT there were no other boats around the 94, so why would he have to dive to the bottom to avoid them. |
The graphics shows two explosions, and the Oregonian article simply refers to an explosion "nearby", not necessarily to another boat.
They may have the order wrong, in that Chenoweth in 23 may have led Kerry's 94 to the right, and the 51 trailed the 3 with Droz bringing up the rear on the left. So the 3 either strikes a mine, or someone on shore remotely triggers it (I haven't seen that clarified). Chenoweth is through on the other side of the net, Kerry comes behind and guns the boat around him. The 3 boat drifts ahead as Thurlow in 51 tries to catch up. It would seem all the subsequent action to save the boat occured on the 'Kerry side' of the net, or mostly. Chenoweth turns to pick up those in the water. Rassman was probably dumped astern and wasn't immediately noticed by the 23 as Kerry speed down the canal and away.
It's very possible Kerry fabricated his 'after-action' report and that the 94 was completely undamaged. But I don't know, as everyone says on these talk shows - I wasn't there. I don't mean to jump on the criticism of the book from those defending Kerry. But O'Neill was a little short of such specifics, apparently. I haven't even gotten the book, yet, either thanks to Regenery, Amazon, or a little of both. |
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tvaughan
Seaman
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Why doesn't the WaPo article mention the after action damage report about the 94?
Many have speculated that the 94 damage report is actually the 3's damage report. After all, the 94 towed the 3. And if you're towing a boat, do you pick the worst damaged boat in the force to do it?
But then Rassman talks about a 2nd explosion (differing from Kerry's earlier, pre-campaign sharp-turn threw him off version) that knocks him in to the water. This is the first I've heard of a 2nd explosion.
(That explosion is not Kerry diving into the water ala Langhofer's version of events)
Rassman then ducks bullets as he watches all the boats desert him, and I guess the 3 boat as well. Man, if I was there I would be pissed, too. The one guy who actually did flee tells the world that he's the only one who had the guts to go back and get Rassman and we should now elect him President because of it.
I can understand a certain fog of war but... who is buying any of this stuff?
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