SwiftVets.com

[Son Of The Godfather]

greasepaint, nice observation!

SOTG
_________________
"Which candidate would enemies of the United States prefer to see in the White House?"

[Denis]

Greeting to all. First post. Am at an extreme handicap, being ex-Army. The only boats I have any familiarity with, and even then only as a short term guest, offer half and full day fishing. Have a question that I am hoping someone familiar with the Swift Boats can address, regarding the ‘Saving Lt. Rassman Incident’.

The story from Kerry and the folks on his boat was that there was a second explosion of 'something', and they don't know if it was a mine or a rocket or a rocket propelled grenade. According to Rassman, the shock of that is what threw him overboard. According to Kerry, that's what threw him against the wheelhouse wall and injured his arm. Yet the Swiftees on the other three boats on the opposite side of the river insist there was no other explosion.

I think I got it.

The Wash Post graphic led me to this, as also that I read somewhere, possibly at this site, thatthe river was approximately 75 yards wide at the point where the mine went off under PCF-3. There was the fishing weir stretched across the river, with openings between it and both banks for boats to pass. I’d imagine that the boats were a few or several yards from the bank when doing so, making the distance between the boats on opposite sides of the river somewhat less than that 75 yards. Kerry and one boat passed on one side, the other three on the other.

I've been on fishing boats considerably larger than a fifty foot Swift Boat, when a 25 footer cruises by, and the wake shakes the 100' plus boat I am on so that everyone grabs the rail. Youfind yourself being lifted and then lowered a range of six to eight feet in a second, a move tending to cause loss of balance. Everyone admits that PCF-3, hit by the mine, was lifted completely out of the water, some saying two and some saying five feet.

So what was the shock/wake from that explosion like? It only had to travel, I would propose, about sixty or so yards or less from where it happened to hit Kerry's boat on the other side. Whatever the size and force of that wake/shock was, it hit the boats behind it head on, at the pointed bow, but it would have broadsided Kerry's boat, a much more emphatic shock. Could that be what they mistook for a mine or grenade hitting them, knocking Kerry off balance and Rassman into the water, and even pushing Kerry's boat, with that wake moving from stern to bow, closer to the bank, even possibly lifting the stern as the driver gunned the engine and possibly causing the props to hit shallow water too close to shore and get damaged. To me, admittedly Army, sounds plausible.

Any comments? Other than perhaps telling a landlubber he's totally ignorant.

What might the wake of such an explosion have been like, and what would and could it do?

Denis

[Denis]

Excuse the redux…

An ex-Navy friend and fellow employee I just spoke to believes that given the circumstances, the wake could have lifted and spun Kerry’s boat. He says that if it happened as described, and Kerry did order the driver to gun it, that increase in speed would have raised the bow and lowered the stern. As the wake came to the boat, stern end first and broadside, he thinks the boat would have spun, with the stern lifted toward the bank and the bow pointed more mid-stream.

In other words, yeah, it could have violently knocked men around, and could have led to the damage described to the prop.

Anyone else?

Denis

[Denis]

According to the details given by Rassman, he was retrieving a gun to give to the gunner on Kerry’s boat who shouted that his gun had jammed, when he was knocked off the boat by the force of some kind of blast.

That can only mean that the gunner had already attempted to fire, and found his gun jammed, if Rassman is correct.

That can only mean that firing had commenced, undoubtedly and at the least the suppression fire the other three boats engaged in.

So when the shooting starts, how long does a gunner require to determine his gun is jammed? A very few seconds?

How long before, in the midst of what may be an ambush, does he shout for a replacement?

How long before another soldier not in a gun tub or manning a fixed gun seeks to retrieve one for him?

I’d say seconds, maybe five to ten.

How long for a wave from a mine explosion to travel, even diagonally, across a span of water 75 yards wide?

Did Kerry, Rassman et al think that a wave was an enemy attack on them?

If Kerry’s Purple Heart was for the bruised arm and injuries he received from being thrown about in the wheelhouse, by a wave, does that count as a Purple Heart meriting event?

Denis

[You GottaBeKidding]

Denis,

Somehow he has to find time to be eating that chocolate chip cookie .

Good questions you've raised. You might want to post that in the Research section.

[The Ghost]

ok let me put in my two cents

i remember reading here that kerry had damaged wheels on his boat after this ,,well let me add this thought ,,the explosion goes off under the #3 boat ,,kerry gets excited and takes off ,,while they are taking off ,,kerry hits a sand bar which knocks off the man he lost overboard ,hitting the sand bar rocks the boat like one scared person might think that he had a explosion under his boat ,,well going over the sand bar the wheels are nicked and curled

now this makes sense to me

what about the rest of you ??

[Aristotle The Hun]

Wow! I just read all 5 pages of this thread.

As Butch Cassidy kept saying "Who are those guys?

I enlisted in '59 and was discharged in '65 so I guess I am one of the "old guys". It had been so long since I had used my brain to understand and plan a mission while having my energy stoked by a warrior spirit. What focus, what clarity, what mission driven energy.

Then I thought to myself, "How would you like to experience several hundred combat trained veterans whose only mission is to bring you down?"

You guys are a lot more scary than the politicians. John Kerry doesn't stand a chance.

Sam
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Deportè Monsieur Kerrè

[sevry]

[poseidon]

[Wing Wiper]

You guys are getting close here. You need to get input from a crewmember that was there doing the boat salvage, because they would remember the depth and obstructions, how it felt on their boats when the wave hit them, the path they used to tow the 3 boat out (and why, sandbar? pilings?). If the damage report (if you can determine which one's real) from Kerry's boat shows curled screws, he hit something. If he hit a mine that wounded him with shrapnel in the thigh while in the pilothouse, it had to leave an entrance hole. Put all of this together, you can come up with a chain of events that would win a court case and convince a jury. TV loves stuff like this, if you have visual aids.
Was Rassmann reaching the bottom when he dived? If so, I doubt it's over 10 feet, and I'd bet a lot less than that. A big mine (lifted the 3 boat 2-3 feet, that's pretty big) might displace enough water to bounce Kerry's boat right off the bottom.

[Frank B]

What has been presented in the WaPo diagram based on information from unnamed "EYE WITNESSES AND NAVY REPORTS," what the BS recommendation and citation state and what Kerry and his liars are saying in the media and in interviews just doesn't jibe. Here's what anyone can deduce just by comparing the WaPo diagram of action and timelines vs. what is in the formal award documents (available at johnkerry.com):

The diagram states the Bronze Star action occurred after an over seven hour mission, the BS recommendation says it happened after a 5 hour sweep (small point). The BS RECOMMENDATION states the "second mine detonated almost simultaneously" with the first mine going off that disabled PCF-3, "throwing Rassmann into the river and wounding Kerry in the right arm" and that Kerry's PCF-94 "provided cover fire;" the BS CITATION states only that the simultaneous mine detonated "knocking a man into the water" never naming Rassmann and mentioning only that suppression fire was provided after returning upriver; the WaPo diagram shows Kerry's PCF-94 making it safely past the fishing weir and further downriver where it was "rocked by an unidentified explosion" (how could that be simultaneously??). The BS documentation states Rassmann was receiving small arms fire; statements and affidavits by Thurlow, Chenoweth and O'Dell state emphatically there was no small arms fire, which was borne out by the fact no bullet hole damage was reported in after action reports. The PCF's that came to PCF-3's aid would have been sitting ducks and certainly would have taken more than a few hits. The BS citation states that with "his arm bleeding and in pain," Kerry pulled the man out of the water; the medical treatment record shows Kerry being treated for a contusion (a bruise with unbroken skin, NO BLEEDING), which was to be treated with "warm soaks" and a shrapnel wound to the buttocks.

The question of the third PH for wounds suffered that day: the buttocks shrapnel wound resulted from when Kerry and Rassmann blew up that rice cache at 9:45am (WaPo diagram). The PH citation states for wounds suffered on 13 Mar 69 without specifically mentioning what wounds, so we must assume he got the PH for a bruised arm and a wound not resulting from hostile action!!! Is this a second bogus PH??

It is a fair assumption that Kerry wrote the recommendation for Elliott's signature and got a boost from Sandusky, the only witness stated in the paperwork. Thurlow didn't know of his Bronze Star award until he was three months out of the Navy and can certainly be forgiven for not knowing what Kerry wrote in the after action report at the time.
_________________
"Any government that believes money should be taken from Peter to pay Paul will, of course,
have the support of Paul" -- G B Shaw

[cipher]

According to John Kerry's eulogy for the bow gunner, the M-60 "came apart" in his hands. That is distinctly different than a jam. And it seems the gunner had issues with running his weapon at other times as well, but that's another story.

Having dumped several hundred cans of ammo down an M-60, and taken them apart and putting them together blindfolded, there are a couple of observations I would like to make.

The M-60 is a ROBUST piece of equipment. It doesn't just "come apart" unless it was never properly assembled in the first place. Which is a possiblity. However, if MY butt staying intact relied on my weapon, I'd be real sure it was in good running order BEFORE I needed it.

The possiblity is that the weapon DID jam (7.62 links back then were not the best design), and that the Kerry eulogy was (oh, how to put this delicately...) embellished? Romanicised? Made up?

Whatever. The weapon was disfunctional, providing the motivation for Rassmann to get a weapon up to the bow.

Firing would have commensed *immediately* on the detonation of the mine, so there is no mystery about the bow gunner wanting to lay down suspression fire, even without motivation of incoming fire. Three or four sets of dual .50s would be kicking up a lot of fuss on the bank, and would be especially startling because the fire would be coming from BEHIND them (the other boats were on the other side of the river), and would be very spooky. Fire coming from their port beam and directed to the shore on their starboard beam at the treeline would/could be construed as "incoming fire".

In this scenario, I can well understand LT Kerry wanting to unass the AO ricky-tick. But not for 5000 meters, unless he was REALLY scared. Which is possible. He was fairly green, only having been in country what? three months?

What we need is that SF 180 signed so we can see ALL the details.

And someone poking around the NHC to snag out anything missed. Routine stuff that can get passed over, like QM reports, requisitions, maintenance and supply records, repair orders, and such.
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92

[djv]

Here is my 2 cents and it may have been mentioned but I missed it.

How can Rasmessan think he is alone when someone on a boat can see him?

Remember he is in the water with his eyes only inches above it. All the other boats are on the other side of the fishing weir which could have blocked his view.

To give Kerry a little benefit of doubt...
If the number 3 boat hadn't been damaged by the mine (a near miss), what would the SOP had been? Wouldn't it have been to get away from the ambush point? If Kerry was on the other side of the weir, he may not have realized that the other boats weren't coming.
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David J V

[montanaguard]

If Pees boat was on the left bank negotiating the gap between the fishing weir and Kerry's boat was on the right side how could the explosion under Pees boat have knocked Rassman off Kerry's boat?

Was Rassman on another boat rather than Kerry's when he was eating a chocolate chip cookie and blown into the water? Was he MOB (man over board) from one of the other boats in the five pack or was he a passenger on Kerry's swiftboat?

Where the crew of Pees boat knocked into the water and needing to be rescue from the river, or were the crew injured but remaining on board despite having the boat lifted out of the water?

Kerry tells a story that they were in a firefight and Rassman fell off the boat when they performed a high speed turn to starboard (right) and another story (or perhaps the same story) that his boat was lifted two feet out of the water by a mine.

Wasn't the Pees boat the only boat to be impacted by the mine?

Now I find it hard to believe a Special Forces person would be eating a chocolate chip cookie during an intense firefight. Maybe eating one before a firefight but you would have to be one cool headed dude and rather stupid to continue to eat a cookie once hostile fire was incoming.

Too many inconsistencies. I can't keep track of the event in any clear manner.

[ASPB]