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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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 Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| d19thdoc wrote: | KeithNolan(Buster) wrote:
| Quote: | | The funny thing is that you have no problem besmirching all whom with you disagree---Kerry and the membership of the VVAW---as traitors, frauds, paid liars, and dupes. |
They besmirched themselves. All I am doing is reporting it, and I stand by it. I am not even sorry you do not like it. |
| d19thdoc wrote: | Charlie Company of the 1st of the 20th was at LZ Charlie Brown two miles from my base camp in early 1968. I encountered them every day while they were there. They did security on the bridges we built and maintained, and on the road we swept for mines every day. I have personal knowledge of the murder of several presumably innocent civilians committed either personally by, or on the orders of, Capt. Ernest Medina a few months before My Lai. It was reported to higher command by a young Lieutenant and a young NCO, both of another unit. The Lieutenant is now a Major General still serving, and the NCO became a Command Sergeant Major of an Army. Had their report been acted on, history may have been different. It wasn't, so far as they know. They never heard any more about it.
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So you admit war crimes and inaction...but the VVAW were paid liars?
Perhaps they saw/did things that haunted them when they returned?
Just maybe?
Nah.... |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| d19thdoc wrote: | | At least my ideas are freely arrived at from my own experience |
I was unaware that you served alongside Kerry and were there when he earned his medals.
I didn't know you and Doug Reese were one and the same. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Speedy wrote: | | d19thdoc wrote: | KeithNolan(Buster) wrote:
| Quote: | | The funny thing is that you have no problem besmirching all whom with you disagree---Kerry and the membership of the VVAW---as traitors, frauds, paid liars, and dupes. |
They besmirched themselves. All I am doing is reporting it, and I stand by it. I am not even sorry you do not like it. |
| d19thdoc wrote: | Charlie Company of the 1st of the 20th was at LZ Charlie Brown two miles from my base camp in early 1968. I encountered them every day while they were there. They did security on the bridges we built and maintained, and on the road we swept for mines every day. I have personal knowledge of the murder of several presumably innocent civilians committed either personally by, or on the orders of, Capt. Ernest Medina a few months before My Lai. It was reported to higher command by a young Lieutenant and a young NCO, both of another unit. The Lieutenant is now a Major General still serving, and the NCO became a Command Sergeant Major of an Army. Had their report been acted on, history may have been different. It wasn't, so far as they know. They never heard any more about it.
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So you admit war crimes and inaction...but the VVAW were paid liars?
Perhaps they saw/did things that haunted them when they returned?
Just maybe?
Nah.... |
I guess you missed this!
Nah......
| d19thdoc wrote: |
| Keith Nolan wrote: |
snip
Quote:
I'm also highly confused by the responses of Mr. Boyle. In his first posting on this thread, he wrote: "I served as a medic for fourteen months in Vietnam, honorably, as did all of the troops I served with. The only atrocities I ever saw or heard about were committed by the VC and the NVA 22d Regiment against us."
But in a more recent post, Mr. Boyle writes: "I have personal knowledge of the murder of several presumably innocent civilians committed either personally by, or on the orders of, Capt. Ernest Medina a few months before My Lai."
Which is it?
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You have probably achieved your best gotcha here, in that you may make me sound like John Kerry.
I heard of the Medina incident for the first time about five years ago, in conversation with one of the two witnesses mentioned, and with another member of their unit who did not actually witness the incident but who heard of it from the other two at the time. I never had direct comment on it from the General mentioned, never having spoken to him myself. It was a surprise to me - a shock - but I do believe it. They are honorable men, as their actions at the time of the incident attest.
Whether there was any basis for the victims having been considered hostile by C/1/20 troops at the time seems to be unclear to them, but they think not. They would not have reported it otherwise. I should also note that their observation of the incident was more at the end, or after the fact, of the action.
When I posted my first statement I simply did not think of the Medina event. That's your answer. Sorry to have no profound defense to my obvious "lie." It is not something that is part of the canon, if you will, of my personal experience in Vietnam. I did not witness it (or anything like it), and never heard about it, or anything else like it, while serving there; only 30 years later. As you no doubt know, personal experiences in combat make searing impressions on the memory (or no impressions that are accessible at all). Things we only hear about are frequently filed under "Yeah . . . whatever."
In fact, it was your own comments about most Vietnam veterans having some such stories that caused my thoughts to start turning in that direction between the two posts.
I suppose if I were writing it over, I'd say I never saw any such thing, but had heard about one incident. And I should not have said of the Medina incident that I had "personal knowledge" because that implies a kind of first hand experience I did not intend to imply. Poor choice of words. If it were in my book, I'm sure my editor would help me with such things - a role you might fill very well.
My feeling still is, considering where I was, when and for how long, that the unique nature of the report rather makes my case, than refutes it. I have talked to five loose leaf binders of people from that time and place, and have another dozen loose leaf binders of official documents, plus photos and audio tapes. These things were neither common occurances nor were they high policy, both points that constitute Kerry's case. Not even in that part of Vietnam at that time. I think it is also important to note that this one incident, by mere coincidence of my time and place, and people I later consulted who were there, gave me information about one of the undoubted bad apples in Vietnam. Hardly a typical unit or individual.
And my whole point in bringing it up at all remains. Certainly such things happened. Denying they happened only makes our case ridiculous. But they were far from the "daily occurances" authorized and encouraged "at all levels of command" that Kerry alleges. This point you acknowledge, then you continue on arguing the issue - or evading it.
I'm the one who is confused.
And just to put this into context, you could just as easily have challenged my truthfulness on the basis of my knowledge of the My Lai massacre, which my first post also seems to deny.
I also must say, considering the extent of my previous posts and your replies, especially this one - I still think you are evading the core issues about Kerry and about his characterization of the Vietnam war and its soldiers.
I hope this answer gives you some satisfaction. |
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| JN173 wrote: | | Speedy wrote: | | d19thdoc wrote: | KeithNolan(Buster) wrote:
| Quote: | | The funny thing is that you have no problem besmirching all whom with you disagree---Kerry and the membership of the VVAW---as traitors, frauds, paid liars, and dupes. |
They besmirched themselves. All I am doing is reporting it, and I stand by it. I am not even sorry you do not like it. |
| d19thdoc wrote: | Charlie Company of the 1st of the 20th was at LZ Charlie Brown two miles from my base camp in early 1968. I encountered them every day while they were there. They did security on the bridges we built and maintained, and on the road we swept for mines every day. I have personal knowledge of the murder of several presumably innocent civilians committed either personally by, or on the orders of, Capt. Ernest Medina a few months before My Lai. It was reported to higher command by a young Lieutenant and a young NCO, both of another unit. The Lieutenant is now a Major General still serving, and the NCO became a Command Sergeant Major of an Army. Had their report been acted on, history may have been different. It wasn't, so far as they know. They never heard any more about it.
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So you admit war crimes and inaction...but the VVAW were paid liars?
Perhaps they saw/did things that haunted them when they returned?
Just maybe?
Nah.... |
I guess you missed this!
Nah....... |
doc admits to knowing of war crimes, murders, and inaction....but then calls all of the winter soldiers liars.
I guess you missed it  |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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This is almost inevitable. Whenever a large group of people attempt to deny something of great magnitude, they hardly ever get their stories straight (the Holocaust or Dirty Wars in Latin America come to mind) and the stories unravel.
Ultimately, with enough effort, it becomes obvious that they're denying something they fully believe but have political reasons to deny (either that or shame).
As Orwell said in reference to rightwingers:
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Speedy wrote: |
"snip"
doc admits to knowing of war crimes, murders, and inaction....but then calls all of the winter soldiers liars.
I guess you missed it |
Doc corrected his statement to having 2nd hand "knowledge" significantly after the fact.
Nobody has denied that some war crime did occur. Almost 300 GI's were convicted of having comitted crimes against Vietnamese persons. The question is did they occur on a daily bases with full knowledge of offficers at all levels of command.
As to the "Winter Soldiers" being liars. I wouldn't nessecarily use that term, but not a single claim made by them has been substantiated despite formal investigation by NIS at the direction of the Senator Mark Hatfield.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: confusion |
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To all who think Doc "can't get his story straight" : Just so you know, Doc made a mistake, and then explained it. He had no personal knowledge of war crimes committed while he was in Vietnam; I can vouch for this because he and I communicated about this precise subject last week. When someone admits a mistake and explains it, piling on is not necessary. Please go back and read either JN173's or Doc's entire post.
for Keith Nolan: I meant what I said about starting that topic named "Keith Nolan is fueled by lies and innuendo ...". When are you going to specifically answer the question of exactly who of the Swift Vets is lying? You have made accusations with no proof. Who of the 220 vets who signed that letter is lying? You really need to answer this or apologize for the name of your topic. As far as innuendo goes, you're the expert in that. All I have to do is cite Kerry's words and deeds. If you cannot explain the outrageous accusation in detail, naming names and why they're lying, then you, sir, are the liar. Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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factchecker
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject: Giap urban legend |
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There was a claim in the original thread under this topic that North Vietnamese General Giap had said that anti-war comments by Walter Cronkite and/or VVAW (and possibly John Kerry) had made the North Vietnamese reconsider surrender plans that they had allegedly started to make.
This claim is false:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_8268.shtml
"A few weeks ago in a column about Kerry, I referred to what has turned out to be an "urban legend." Specifically, based on a "news" item that appeared on NewsMax.com, I repeated a reference to a volume of memoirs supposedly published by North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap in 1985 as the source of an assertion by Colonel Oliver North. After a reader requested a reference to Giap's 1985 "Memoirs," I did research that convinced me no such volume exists. For that matter, I haven't been able to verify through Fox News that Colonel North actually made the comments he is said to have made and which I repeated. My apologies to Colonel North and to WashingtonDispatch.com readers for including inadequately verified material in my piece on Kerry." |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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unabashed comprehensive retraction
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is almost inevitable. Whenever a large group of people attempt to deny something of great magnitude, they hardly ever get their stories straight . . . |
Couldn't have put it better myself. I thought you were on Kerry's side? | Quote: | | Ultimately, with enough effort, it becomes obvious that they're denying something they fully believe but have political reasons to deny (either that or shame). |
A little convoluted, but almost clear. I have nothing to be ashamed of, and have been out of denial for years. How about you?
| Quote: | As Orwell said in reference to rightwingers:
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. |
From this can we assume you disapprove of "nationalists" of course?
It seems to me that the only one I've found who truly did not disapprove of atrocities commited by his own side, but found them absolutely great fun, was Winter Soldier witness Joe Bangert; but then you knew that, having read the transcript, right? And, it seems I recall a little dust up here about someone who wrote about hearing of an atrocity . . . now let's see, who was that?
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:12 am Post subject: |
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[quote="JN173"] | Speedy wrote: | | Nobody has denied that some war crime did occur |
| JN173 wrote: | | As to the "Winter Soldiers" being liars. I wouldn't nessecarily use that term |
Neither would I
A lot of bad sh*t went down over there....the winter soldiers were just telling their personal stories. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Speedy wrote: | | JN173 wrote: | | Nobody has denied that some war crime did occur |
"Snip"
| JN173 wrote: | | As to the "Winter Soldiers" being liars. I wouldn't nessecarily use that term |
Neither would I
A lot of bad sh*t went down over there....the winter soldiers were just telling their personal stories. |
The pictures of My Lai you posted have nothing to do with "Winter Soldier"
Telling their personal stories. It's amazing how deep one can stack the BS when you don't have to provide a single shread of evidence.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Speedy wrote: | | the winter soldiers were just telling their personal stories. |
Especially those that had never served in Vietnam, huh?
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De Oppresso Liber |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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d19thdoc, the "I'm rubber, you're glue" approach won't get you very far. As for how many of the vets enjoyed killing civilians, we'll never know. I think that most of those who did enjoy it aren't really broadcasting it outside their shrinks couch.
As for nationalists not disapproving of atrocities on their own side, get real. Even Rush Limbaugh poo-poo'd the treatment at Abu Gharib as no worse than fraternity hazing. And seriously... don't you agree that if we didn't give our enemies a little of the "Saddam treatment" they might think we're soft?
I can't think of any atrocities occurring in Latin America by our allies there that weren't denied and then defended by nationalists here in the US.
ps: regarding an earlier thread, I just found another looney site trying to pass off the photo of Kerry in front of the VC flag as real:
http://justalife.homestead.com/JohnKerry.html |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sparky wrote:
| Quote: | | sparky wrote: | d19thdoc, the "I'm rubber, you're glue" approach won't get you very far. As for how many of the vets enjoyed killing civilians, we'll never know. I think that most of those who did enjoy it aren't really broadcasting it outside their shrinks couch.
As for nationalists not disapproving of atrocities on their own side, get real. Even Rush Limbaugh poo-poo'd the treatment at Abu Gharib as no worse than fraternity hazing. And seriously... don't you agree that if we didn't give our enemies a little of the "Saddam treatment" they might think we're soft?
I can't think of any atrocities occurring in Latin America by our allies there that weren't denied and then defended by nationalists here in the US. |
ps: regarding an earlier thread, I just found another looney site trying to pass off the photo of Kerry in front of the VC flag as real:
http://justalife.homestead.com/JohnKerry.html |
So you are not familiar with the Winter Soldier testimony.
Serves me right, I guess. If I waste time poking holes in irrelevancies - what we get is more of the same.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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